Monday 25th July 2005

Speeding fines refunded

Folly Bottom folly is to be reversed

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A303 at Folly Bottom

The Crown Prosecution Service has called for all fines issued for speeding at the road works at Folly Bottom on the A303 in Wiltshire to be refunded. This follows a drawn out battle where many motorists were wrongly fined for allegedly exceeding a speed limit they couldn't have known was there.

Some 6,200 motorists are affected, with the fines amounting to more than £372,000.

The speed limit laws are strict: if a speed limit isn't properly signed, then no one can be convicted for exceeding it. Road safety campaign Safe Speed pointed out that this aspect of the law is fair and necessary, because no one can reasonably be expected to observe a speed limit if they didn't have any way of knowing that it existed.

Paul Smith, founder of the campaign said: "I hope any motorist who has suffered any loss as a result of this wrongful application of the law will be able to obtain proper compensation without too much difficulty. Of course, if anyone lost their driving licence and their job as a consequence then the compensation could be considerable.

"It was soon after the court cases exposing the Folly Bottom 'folly' that the Wiltshire and Swindon Camera Partnership announced that they would be placing camera vans on the M4 motorway. I wonder if they have made up the deficit yet?"

Safe Speed has made the recommendation that that motorists should ensure that any alleged case against them is accurate, complete and legal before they pay any fixed penalty -- a piece of advice that of course applies to any dealings with the law.

[arcbeer]

Good idea on Top Gear last night. Put the speed limit on the back of the scamera.

[cjbolter]

I'd heard this idea mooted on several sites, but at the risk of stating the obvious this would only help in cases where the camera gets you from behind !!!!.
SPECS cameras ( and some others ) get you from the front !!.
I must admit that I am a bit puzzled by this one, don't you know what limit is in action ??. What speed are you driving at or near ??, and why ??, if you dont know the limit in force.
We can't legitimately complain about speed cameras if we admit we are so un observant or blase that we dont know the limit !!.
Sorry, but the argument against the plethora of "scameras" must remain logical.

[cptsideways]

The A37 from Wincanton to Bristol has 39 speed limit changes along its route, thats a prime example. I doubt more than 20% of drivers know exactly what the limit is at any one time. But by heck its enforced to death.

[mutant_matt]

Agreed!! I am sick of being behind idiots who don't know what the limit is so often brake all the way down to 30. This has happened to me more than a couple of times on a 60 or 70 limit!!!

Matt.

[parrot of doom]

Knowing the limit isn't that important. Knowing how to drive safely is.

[cjbolter]

Slightly off topic, but still a legitimate point :-)

This morning I was queued up for 42 minutes at a "traffic census point". As I waited in a line of approx 20 vehicles I was on a rise in the road and could see the queue from the other direction.
Bear with me on this one.
Whilst I waited, I saw and counted 27 vehicles which did a quick 3 point turn on seeing the BiB, and went back the way they had come.
Now, if I had been a BiB, I would have been stationed at the end of the queue and stopped those who turned around !!.
Those would be either in a genuine hurry OR had something to hide !! No tax, no insurance, stolen car, or even the crim that BiB were after in the first place. NOT those law abiding citizens patiently waiting to be interviewed.

This is typical of life in the UK, the innocent suffer whilst the guilty get away with whatever cos that modus operandi is easier for the BiB !!!!.
VBR CJ.

[smeggy]

What's the betting that the council/partnership will cheat by only refunding those who have contested the NIP, as opposed to acting ethically by chasing up all the NIPped victims?

[Richard C]

cjbolter said:

I saw and counted 27 vehicles which did a quick 3 point turn on seeing the BiB,

I would have been one of the 27. I have more important things to do than sit in a traffic queue for 42 minutes. If I do get stuck in one my policy is to refuse to answer the questions.

[smeggy]

Richard C said:

I would have been one of the 27.

That would make me number 2
I don't handle queues very well, especially those done on purpose.
I've been lucky enough to be able to avoid such things, but I'm curious.

What questions do they ask you, or is it just a document check?

[GreenV8S]

Richard C said:

If I do get stuck in one my policy is to refuse to answer the questions.

Have you applied this policy yet? I thought you were legally obliged to answer the questions put to you at an official census.

[deadlym]

GreenV8S said:

Richard C said: If I do get stuck in one my policy is to refuse to answer the questions. Have you applied this policy yet? I thought you were legally obliged to answer the questions put to you at an official census.

I haven't, but I did think that they required the police in attendance to pull you over, since they have no power to do that themselves. Given that, I think the actual survey is voluntary, although I doubt they'd tell you that at the time.

As far as I know, the questions are just where are you going from/to. Like the other two, I'd be number 3 turning round and finding another way.

On a recent census on the A50, I avoided it by using a back road. I was not alone. Presumably this means that the census was invalid because people who knew the road well enough avoided it.

[catso]

arcbeer said:

Good idea on Top Gear last night. Put the speed limit on the back of the scamera.

Better idea; put the scamera in a skip

[anonymous-user]

smeggy said:

What's the betting that the council/partnership will cheat by only refunding those who have contested the NIP, as opposed to acting ethically by chasing up all the NIPped victims?

That wouldn't surprise me at all. It's been done before and will, I am sure, be done again. I was told by a very reliable source of a conversation that was overheard in a court building where the gist of it was that they knowingly allowed a driver to plead guilty to a speeding charge when they knew that, like in this instance, the limit was unenforceable.

[Peter Ward]

LexSport said:

smeggy said: What's the betting that the council/partnership will cheat by only refunding those who have contested the NIP, as opposed to acting ethically by chasing up all the NIPped victims? That wouldn't surprise me at all. It's been done before and will, I am sure, be done again. I was told by a very reliable source of a conversation that was overheard in a court building where the gist of it was that they knowingly allowed a driver to plead guilty to a speeding charge when they knew that, like in this instance, the limit was unenforceable.

The alternative is to admit that the limit is unenforceable, remove the signs until a new order is submitted, processed, and approved, and only then to reinstate the signs. Local residents are furious. The local rag has a go at "ridiculous bureaucracy". And someone in authority ends up looking very stupid. Now, what choice would that "someone" make?

Honesty seems to be in short supply in all tiers of government, with leadership ably supplied right from the top.

[streaky]

GreenV8S said:

Richard C said: If I do get stuck in one my policy is to refuse to answer the questions. Have you applied this policy yet? I thought you were legally obliged to answer the questions put to you at an official census.

You are not - Streaky

[plug]

smeggy said:

What's the betting that the council/partnership will cheat by only refunding those who have contested the NIP, as opposed to acting ethically by chasing up all the NIPped victims?

I got a letter through the post the other day about refunding my fine, it was the first I had heard of it, as I didn't appose thi nip.

[joe_90]

what about points?? do they give those back to you? or were there no points.. and do you have to tell you insurance company?

[smeggy]

plug said:

I got a letter through the post the other day about refunding my fine, it was the first I had heard of it, as I didn't appose thi nip.

Wow. Must admit I’m very surprised, happily so. I know the partnerships have manoeuvred their way into keeping the cash on previous occasions.

Will you be seeking compensation for resulting higher insurance premiums?
Do let us know how it goes

[puggit]

deadlym said:

GreenV8S said: Richard C said: If I do get stuck in one my policy is to refuse to answer the questions. Have you applied this policy yet? I thought you were legally obliged to answer the questions put to you at an official census. I haven't, but I did think that they required the police in attendance to pull you over, since they have no power to do that themselves. Given that, I think the actual survey is voluntary, although I doubt they'd tell you that at the time.

Correct - you must pull over the the plod, but don't have to say a word to the civvy asking the questions.

Frankly if I had sat in a jam for this, I'd tell them where to go.

[7db]

Last time I was stopped in a traffic census:-

- Where are you going today?
- To a funeral. I'm late.

- On your way.