DE vs UK motorway - accident rates

[cyrus1971]

I wonder if the reason there is a difference between the UK and DE motorway speed limits is nothing at all to do with driving.

More to do with attitudes to life. In the UK if one enforces a 70mph limit then most crashes will be just injuries and not deaths (BiB please comment). Perhaps it’s that in DE they don’t care if you die or take someone with you. Or is it that they feel you have the right to decide for yourself and not be told what to do and that’s the risk you take on if you travel on the motorway ?

Is there any data on DE : average motorway speeds, accidents, deaths, per 1,000 KM kind of thing ? Any “Like for Like” comparison with the UK ? I have a feeling DE does not kill any more because of their speed.

comments ?

[hugoagogo]

found this wiki link

deaths on motorway per billion km travelled:
germany 3.8 (not the highest by a long way)
UK 2.0 (not quite the lowest, but pretty good)

no idea about average speeds tho, only general feeling that people are going significantly faster on the autobahn, between 80 and 120 mph would be normal, trucks pretty much the same as uk



>> Edited by hugoagogo on Tuesday 21st March 08:25

[dcb]

cyrus1971 said:

Or is it that they feel you have the right to decide for yourself and not be told what to do and thats the risk you take on if you travel on the motorway ?

IMHO, UK tends to treat it's adults like children and then
wonders why they act like children. Mummy knows best, don't
think for yourself, etc

Also, in UK, owning a car and using it enthusiastically is
one step away from being a child murderer.

DE treats adults like adults - they expect some common sense
[ not a lot, just some ].

In DE, owning a car is a joy and respect is due those who
cruise at 150 mph or more day in day out.

In DE, they also recognise that owning and running a fast
car is an expensive business that puts a lot of money back
in the economy. Certainly large sections of Bavaria and some
parts of Stuttgart would be a lot worse off if fast cars were
banned.

mondeoman said:

Is there any data on DE : average motorway speeds, accidents, deaths, per 1,000 KM kind of thing ? Any Like for Like comparison with the UK ? I have a feeling DE does not kill any more because of their speed.

www.abd.org.uk in their motorway section has more on this.
DE claims only 6% of all accidents happen on their autobahn.

[safespeed]

cyrus1971 said:

I wonder if the reason there is a difference between the UK and DE motorway speed limits is nothing at all to do with driving. More to do with attitudes to life. In the UK if one enforces a 70mph limit then most crashes will be just injuries and not deaths (BiB please comment). Perhaps it’s that in DE they don’t care if you die or take someone with you. Or is it that they feel you have the right to decide for yourself and not be told what to do and that’s the risk you take on if you travel on the motorway ? Is there any data on DE : average motorway speeds, accidents, deaths, per 1,000 KM kind of thing ? Any “Like for Like” comparison with the UK ? I have a feeling DE does not kill any more because of their speed. comments ?

The Autobahns were the first motorways and have tighter bends, shorter sliproads, more 2/4 lane and so on. By design they are considerably more dangerous than UK motorways.

Clearly there's no relationship at all between speed limit and fatality rate.

[flemke]

safespeed said:

The Autobahns were the first motorways and have tighter bends, shorter sliproads, more 2/4 lane and so on. By design they are considerably more dangerous than UK motorways.

In addition to that difference:

- Winter (and its poor driving conditions) in the more populous parts of Germany is quite a bit harsher than winter in the more populous parts of the UK.
- Germany is the crossroads of the Continent. Millions of foreign holiday-makers who are unfamiliar with the Autobahn driving environment will nonetheless drive on it in the course of a year.
- In addition, Autobahns suffer a density of HGVs that must be 3-4x as great as it is on British motorways. Apart from the massive HGV shunts that one sees, the need for more frequent HGV overtakes by the slower, more timid car drivers increases risk for all.
Although German driving standards are generally on a par with British standards, one stark exception is the Continental weakness of moving abruptly and without warning from a nearside lane to an offside lane - often into the path of a car that is already in the faster lane.

If we adjust the German figures for the above differences which Paul and I have pointed out, the already-solid safety record on Autobahns - where people regularly drive at 125-150 mph - is much more impressive.
Perhaps Speed Saves Lives.




>> Edited by flemke on Tuesday 21st March 23:59

[hugoagogo]

flemke said:

In addition to that difference:

i'd agree with all that, especially the large amounts of mostly foreign trucks and add;

roadworks are far less 'coned off' than UK equivalents, workers crossing carriageway quite regularly
lots of narrow two-lane motorways, lots of narrow hard shoulders (as in the cologne coach crash recently)
longer distances, tiredness could be a big factor

[7db]

safespeed said:

Clearly there's no relationship at all between speed limit and fatality rate.

Clearly.

If anything, the relationship seems to be based on being Northern European, or at least quite antiseptic.

Anything with comparable traffic densities / weather patterns (which vary considerably by country and might be supposed to have some effect).

[cptsideways]

I for one find the Autobahn systems much more relaxing, with much more alert drivers generally much better behavior too especially from the truck where the lane systemes are enforced.

Agree that their sliproads, deep V drainage ditches that you'll most defiantely roll in an accident in & winter weather cause much more havoc.


I bet the summertime accident rate is considerably less than the UK's??

[MartinD]

No speed limit = fewer casualties
according to statistics from Montana when they did away with speed limits but then had them reintroduced.
www.hwysafety.com/hwy_montana_2001.htm

[leadfootlydon]

MartinD said:

No speed limit = fewer casualties according to statistics from Montana when they did away with speed limits but then had them reintroduced. www.hwysafety.com/hwy_montana_2001.htm

This needs to be more widely known about.

[JoolzB]

3.8 per billion travelled is still a very small number, not to those killed obviously but hardly an indicator that speed kills. Average autobahn speeds are likely to be far, far higher too than in the UK as they don't get so bunged up like our motorways.

[flemke]

JoolzB said:

3.8 per billion travelled is still a very small number, not to those killed obviously but hardly an indicator that speed kills. Average autobahn speeds are likely to be far, far higher too than in the UK as they don't get so bunged up like our motorways.

I spend quite a bit of time on the Autobahn and I'd say that the interesting thing is that the median speed on it appears to be similar to what it is on British motorways. The distribution above the median is the big departure from one system to the other.
The beauty of it is that everyone travels at the speed at which he or she is comfortable but also alert. It is so much less likely that you will nod off or that your concentration will lapse when you have chosen and you continuously modulate the speed that seems right to you.

[dcb]

safespeed said:

Clearly there's no relationship at all between speed limit and fatality rate.

Just so we are clear on this: I did a straight forward co-efficient
of correlation test on the European test data a few weeks ago.

Any scientist used to processing scientific data is used to
that kind of analysis.

For the rest of us: anywhere near 0.0 means totally unrelated,
anywhere near 0.5 means partly related and anywhere near 1.0 means
strongly related.

The data gave a value of 0.0 - totally unrelated in scientific fact.
I couldn't have got a better value if I'd made up the data myself.

[Zod]

Driving on the Autobahn is so much less likely to make you nod off through boredom. The variations in speed and density of traffic are so much greater than in the constant traffic at 75 mph UK.

[leadfootlydon]

flemke said:

I spend quite a bit of time on the Autobahn and I'd say that the interesting thing is that the median speed on it appears to be similar to what it is on British motorways. The distribution above the median is the big departure from one system to the other.

Flemke, that is a fascinating point you make about the distribution of speeds.

So, given a free choice, *most* drivers on the autobhans end up driving about the same speed or perhaps only a little faster than *most* drivers on the motorways. In the UK, of course, most drivers are breaking the law when they do that (driving at 80mph is still breaking the law, even if you won't usually be pulled for it).

It certainly changes the dynamics of driving when you know there is a good chance that someone might come up behind you so quickly that you don't see them coming. Small wonder lane discipline is better in DE.

[anonymous-user]

in my, admitedly limited experience of autobahns (4-5 trips), very few are actually limit free so looking at the stats you're not really comparing a limit free autobahn system with a limited motorway one. you've got to look at other factors. Other than those mentioned previously, I assume these figures include old eastern germany; now what would you rather crash in? A trabant or a mercedes

[flemke]

leadfootlydon said:

So, given a free choice, *most* drivers on the autobhans end up driving about the same speed or perhaps only a little faster than *most* drivers on the motorways. In the UK, of course, most drivers are breaking the law when they do that (driving at 80mph is still breaking the law, even if you won't usually be pulled for it).

Yes.
Typically, I'd roughly estimate, 80-85% of traffic travels at same sorts of speeds as you'll see in UK (especially in comparison with faster UK M'ways such as M40). Maybe 10% is a bit quicker than what you see in UK, and remaining <10% is really moving and overtaking constantly.

[flemke]

francisb said:

in my, admitedly limited experience of autobahns (4-5 trips), very few are actually limit free so looking at the stats you're not really comparing a limit free autobahn system with a limited motorway one. you've got to look at other factors. Other than those mentioned previously, I assume these figures include old eastern germany; now what would you rather crash in? A trabant or a mercedes

Actually a lot of what Autobahn there is in the east (where there's less of it than in south and west) has been redone since reunification, so it's in better shape than the rest.
I've not seen latest stats, but IIRC 40-50% of Autobahn system is still derestricted. There are sections that go for 75km or more with no limit or only a brief one for a junction.

[chevy-stu]

Most times I'm germany I notice in general that they drive fast but positively. They tend to tailgate each other though, worse than in UK.
I would be curiuous if it were possible to do a study of time spent travelling in vehicles on average in UK compared to Germany, to prove they get to destination bit quicker, and less relative congestion because of better driving standards/higher motorway speeds.

[futie]

JoolzB said:

3.8 per billion travelled is still a very small number, not to those killed obviously but hardly an indicator that speed kills.

This is important, I think. I mean; how many of us get in our cars every day and expect to be involved in an accident? None of us. And that's based upon real life experience.

The news & media are able to create paranoia and distort reality to such an extent that it affects the laws by which we live by. This is madness. These should be based upon fact - the fact that society is very probably just as safe (if not much safer) now as it was 20, 50, or 100 years ago. And just because we get to hear about every single report of assault, attack or injury throughout the country is not an indication that we should lock up our daughters and never leave the house without a mobile phone. Or that we need to put more effort into enforcing speed limits because people who drive fast are killing us all off.

The best thing this government can do is stop appearing on TV, stop creating soundbytes and trying to keep the media sweet and get on with governing. Then we may return to a society where reality rules and knee-jerk reactions to media pressure are nonexistant. It makes me cringe when the day after some kind of media event occurs, we see some knob on TV explaining how the government are going to devote x and y to solving this problem and 3 months later we see a new law proposed to address the problem of people driving around with missing hubcaps.

Whoops, I fear I may have strayed off topic

>> Edited by futie on Thursday 23 March 11:43