Advance warning for ANPR Enforcement
Discussion
I was chatting to a mate recently who got off a ticket for going against a ban turn, which ANPR caught. His defence was that there were no advance warning signs, which the adjudicator agreed with. It appear that while there is no legal requirement for advance warning signs, Council are advised to install them when they enforce.
This got me thinking, if “not seeing the restriction sign” is a sufficient defence, and therefore advance warnings are needed to almost double up on signage at ANPR locations, why are they not required at every single restriction by law?
I know many locations do have advanced warning, but it seems strange to me that we, as a society, have deemed not seeing a sign an appropriate defence against some illegal movements and not others. If you went through a sign and had an accident, missing a sign would not be a sufficient defence, yet for ANPR, it is.
Just wonder what people thought.
This got me thinking, if “not seeing the restriction sign” is a sufficient defence, and therefore advance warnings are needed to almost double up on signage at ANPR locations, why are they not required at every single restriction by law?
I know many locations do have advanced warning, but it seems strange to me that we, as a society, have deemed not seeing a sign an appropriate defence against some illegal movements and not others. If you went through a sign and had an accident, missing a sign would not be a sufficient defence, yet for ANPR, it is.
Just wonder what people thought.
Type R Tom said:
paul_c123 said:
Hearsay
Getting off a ticket due to no advance warning signs is heresay?What do you mean by 'advance' warning sign? Warning of a banned turn or ANPR?
You can't be done for doing a banned turn if there is no sign telling you not to. As for ANPR, what does it matter, a banned turn is a banned turned.
Yellow Lizud said:
Type R Tom said:
paul_c123 said:
Hearsay
Getting off a ticket due to no advance warning signs is heresay?What do you mean by 'advance' warning sign? Warning of a banned turn or ANPR?
You can't be done for doing a banned turn if there is no sign telling you not to. As for ANPR, what does it matter, a banned turn is a banned turned.
I'm not saying you can get off if there are no signs, I'm saying you can get off if there are no advanced warning signs of said restriction.
Type R Tom said:
paul_c123 said:
Type R Tom said:
Getting off a ticket due to no advance warning signs is heresay?
No, chatting to a mate then relaying the message here is heresay. What sort of advanced warning signs are we talking about by the way?
Type R Tom said:
Advanced warning of a traffic restriction in addition to the signs at the restriction, not that it is enforced or though they do sometimes the camera sign at them.
I'm not saying you can get off if there are no signs, I'm saying you can get off if there are no advanced warning signs of said restriction.
OK, thanks for the explanation, I understand now.I'm not saying you can get off if there are no signs, I'm saying you can get off if there are no advanced warning signs of said restriction.
However, as the advanced sign is not mandatory I would be very, very surprised if that's a good enough reason to get out of a ticket.
Hence I'd go along with the hearsay, or your mate is talking bks!!
It would be very interesting to hear AGT's take on this, especially if he has ever defended anyone (successfully or otherwise) in a similar situation.
To give an example (not involving my friend, but nearby). In one direction, there is an advance warning sign for no entry, but in the other direction, it is missing. From what I have read elsewhere online regarding appeals, from one direction you could be successful, but from the other, not, due to the lack of advance warning.
The lack of signage only becomes an issue when the restriction is enforced.
The lack of signage only becomes an issue when the restriction is enforced.
There is similar in our town. A no right turn in one direction only. A standard sign showing this with no restriction to turning left into the same side road from the other direction and no signs there either. Side road is two-way so it is ok to turn left into it. It is to prevent a queue forming while a car has to wait for a gap in oncoming traffic. It is near a light controlled junction so an extra delay is avoided. No cameras though.
Type R Tom said:
To give an example (not involving my friend, but nearby). In one direction, there is an advance warning sign for no entry, but in the other direction, it is missing. From what I have read elsewhere online regarding appeals, from one direction you could be successful, but from the other, not, due to the lack of advance warning.
The lack of signage only becomes an issue when the restriction is enforced.
The no entry sign (actually two) are clear in themselves, and enforceable without an advance warning sign. The presence of an advance warning sign is not for compliance with legal requirements, but to aid traffic flow or help motorists who might plan an alternate route if they believed they could have turned onto the no entry road. Given that the two directions would obviously have different route planning opportunities (ie assuming a U turn is not practical), then the last reason explains why one direction might have an advance warning and the other not.The lack of signage only becomes an issue when the restriction is enforced.
Yellow Lizud said:
It would be very interesting to hear AGT's take on this, especially if he has ever defended anyone (successfully or otherwise) in a similar situation.
In this case, though, it appears that it wasn't a successful legal defence of a case, it was a (surprising) decision by the council to let someone off because it seemed a bit harsh.MustangGT said:
My thoughts on the OPs OP is simply that his mate has not been entirely truthful.
Yep, making it up. Got him to send me the quote from the appealThe Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle failed to comply with a restriction on vehicles making a right turn in XXXXXX on XXX 2023 at XXXX.
The Appellant's case is that the signage was insufficient when turning into XXXXX to indicate the restriction.
I have considered all the evidence in this case and I find, on a balance of probabilities, that this contravention is not proved.
I find the signage at this location, whilst compliant with the regulations, was overall inadequate for the Appellant's vehicle when turning right into XXX on the XXX 2023 at.
The appeal is allowed.
Type R Tom said:
Yep, making it up. Got him to send me the quote from the appeal
The Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle failed to comply with a restriction on vehicles making a right turn in XXXXXX on XXX 2023 at XXXX.
The Appellant's case is that the signage was insufficient when turning into XXXXX to indicate the restriction.
I have considered all the evidence in this case and I find, on a balance of probabilities, that this contravention is not proved.
I find the signage at this location, whilst compliant with the regulations, was overall inadequate for the Appellant's vehicle when turning right into XXX on the XXX 2023 at.
The appeal is allowed.
niceThe Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle failed to comply with a restriction on vehicles making a right turn in XXXXXX on XXX 2023 at XXXX.
The Appellant's case is that the signage was insufficient when turning into XXXXX to indicate the restriction.
I have considered all the evidence in this case and I find, on a balance of probabilities, that this contravention is not proved.
I find the signage at this location, whilst compliant with the regulations, was overall inadequate for the Appellant's vehicle when turning right into XXX on the XXX 2023 at.
The appeal is allowed.
Type R Tom said:
MustangGT said:
My thoughts on the OPs OP is simply that his mate has not been entirely truthful.
Yep, making it up. Got him to send me the quote from the appealThe Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle failed to comply with a restriction on vehicles making a right turn in XXXXXX on XXX 2023 at XXXX.
The Appellant's case is that the signage was insufficient when turning into XXXXX to indicate the restriction.
I have considered all the evidence in this case and I find, on a balance of probabilities, that this contravention is not proved.
I find the signage at this location, whilst compliant with the regulations, was overall inadequate for the Appellant's vehicle when turning right into XXX on the XXX 2023 at.
The appeal is allowed.
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