Undertaking on a motorbike
Discussion
The white line post got me thinking about another topic of conversation from my weekend away with my bike mates.
I commute to London on a motorway and regularly undertake to make progress. I use one of two techniques.
1) Single car inappropriate outside lane. Approach allow two seconds for them to get out of the way politely. Move to the inside of the inside lane and nail it. Even if the car makes a sudden swerve to the inside I am long gone. I did this at the weekend and they just sat behind an oblivious Ford Ka for about a mile.
2) Filtering in the middle lane, or riding in the inside lane (this is often free!!). Done gradually and (I guess) 10 to 20 mph faster than outside lane traffic. I will do this up until around 90mph. I keep the differential speed minimal while looking for signs of a lane change. If they change I can either brake or accelarate out.
I have never had a close shave doing this and do not consider this to be dangerous, but do you think this is dangerous? BTW, I do accept that I may/would be stopped if observed doing this.
Interested to hear responses particularly from BiB motorcyclists.
I commute to London on a motorway and regularly undertake to make progress. I use one of two techniques.
1) Single car inappropriate outside lane. Approach allow two seconds for them to get out of the way politely. Move to the inside of the inside lane and nail it. Even if the car makes a sudden swerve to the inside I am long gone. I did this at the weekend and they just sat behind an oblivious Ford Ka for about a mile.
2) Filtering in the middle lane, or riding in the inside lane (this is often free!!). Done gradually and (I guess) 10 to 20 mph faster than outside lane traffic. I will do this up until around 90mph. I keep the differential speed minimal while looking for signs of a lane change. If they change I can either brake or accelarate out.
I have never had a close shave doing this and do not consider this to be dangerous, but do you think this is dangerous? BTW, I do accept that I may/would be stopped if observed doing this.
Interested to hear responses particularly from BiB motorcyclists.
P1ssing off car drivers that sit in the outside lane inappropriately is not a consideration of mine when trying to make progress safely!! In fact, if they P1ssing off car drivers that sit in the outside lane inappropriately is not a consideration of mine when trying to make progress safely!! In fact, if they realise the error of there ways by me going up the inside more the better.
The 'nail it' (poor description) could better be described as accelerate hard to so as to spend as little time as possible parallel to the car. This does not necessarily mean braking the speed limit, although I must admit given the right conditions I often do (difficult not to on a modern sports bike as I am sure you know!). Dordling past slowly surely puts you at greater risk with more time in blind spot???
In the 'nail it' situation I am talking about having a lane free to perform the manoeuvre, not filtering.
The 'nail it' (poor description) could better be described as accelerate hard to so as to spend as little time as possible parallel to the car. This does not necessarily mean braking the speed limit, although I must admit given the right conditions I often do (difficult not to on a modern sports bike as I am sure you know!). Dordling past slowly surely puts you at greater risk with more time in blind spot???
In the 'nail it' situation I am talking about having a lane free to perform the manoeuvre, not filtering.
Sorry it is difficult to describe things accurately sometimes.
I said 'Inside of the inside lane' I had a dual carriageway in my head at the time. Hence giving enough room to get past in safety.
With regard to numpties, I don't dispute they are out there, but I like to think I am not one of them!
I said 'Inside of the inside lane' I had a dual carriageway in my head at the time. Hence giving enough room to get past in safety.
With regard to numpties, I don't dispute they are out there, but I like to think I am not one of them!
I am afraid to say in 12 years of motorcycling I have never got around to it. I have been on a couple of observed rides but that is it. I also ride with an ex motorcycle cop who has been good to learn from.
I think your post may be just the prompt I need to get it sorted, kind of been in the back of my mind for a while.
I think your post may be just the prompt I need to get it sorted, kind of been in the back of my mind for a while.
Streetcop, as I said in the white lines thread I am ashamed to say I have not done the IAM. I have had a couple of observed rides and ride with an ex police biker which is useful.
IAM has been in the back of my mind for a while, one of those things I have never got around to. I have this morning emailed my local group (honest, I have). If nothing else our discussions have achieved this.
Cheers Streetcop!
Oh yeah, I was agreeing with your and Ben L on cars moving over and the 95% of car drivers bit.
IAM has been in the back of my mind for a while, one of those things I have never got around to. I have this morning emailed my local group (honest, I have). If nothing else our discussions have achieved this.
Cheers Streetcop!
Oh yeah, I was agreeing with your and Ben L on cars moving over and the 95% of car drivers bit.
[quote=kurgis]Hmm you've just described one of the single most dangerous activities on a bike - and you will get "nailed" by a car as you so put it - hope you've got good leathers and a will written for your family.
Did I say I would get nailed by a car errr, no I did not. I see people doing this every day with no regard for junctions, road flow etc etc I am not one of these.
The number one cause of accidents where the motorcyclist is at fault : bad over/undertaking.
The numgber one cause of accidents where the vehicle
driver is at fault: poor vision when turning.
Just because you think you're safe, I personally don't think you should have a license with that sort of action, either that or I would like to see you pay triple NHS contributions to cover the fact that you are way more likely to suffer an accident than someone who wouldnt do something so stupid (sorry blunt again).
So taking that further you would have me give up motorcycling all together would you? I guess you are one of those cotton wool merchants.
Now then, that may sound pretty contentious and i'm sure i'm opening a can of worms - but you like every other motorbike rider i've talked to (and I have talked to a hell of a lot) presumes that every other driver (this is the view of 90% of ALL motorists btw) is the problem.
Don't agree at all. I try to ride safely taking into account other road users. You accept that people might not have seen you and ride accordingly. I accept that if I am undertaking and have an accident that I should not have performed the undertake. However, I ride in such a way as to minimise this happening. I guess you would have us all sitting in a queue with all the cars (or off the road altogether)?
If you note I agree with Streetcop and his 95% comment.
Note: To people reading this - I've done a **** load of road safety research in all fields, its my job
Research is all very well but, as my biology teacher used to say, 'nothing is better than a bit of practical'. I take it you have never been on a bike?
>> Edited by mattrsv on Tuesday 13th July 11:17
Did I say I would get nailed by a car errr, no I did not. I see people doing this every day with no regard for junctions, road flow etc etc I am not one of these.
The number one cause of accidents where the motorcyclist is at fault : bad over/undertaking.
The numgber one cause of accidents where the vehicle
driver is at fault: poor vision when turning.
Just because you think you're safe, I personally don't think you should have a license with that sort of action, either that or I would like to see you pay triple NHS contributions to cover the fact that you are way more likely to suffer an accident than someone who wouldnt do something so stupid (sorry blunt again).
So taking that further you would have me give up motorcycling all together would you? I guess you are one of those cotton wool merchants.
Now then, that may sound pretty contentious
and i'm sure i'm opening a can of worms - but you like every other motorbike rider i've talked to (and I have talked to a hell of a lot) presumes that every other driver (this is the view of 90% of ALL motorists btw) is the problem. Don't agree at all. I try to ride safely taking into account other road users. You accept that people might not have seen you and ride accordingly. I accept that if I am undertaking and have an accident that I should not have performed the undertake. However, I ride in such a way as to minimise this happening. I guess you would have us all sitting in a queue with all the cars (or off the road altogether)?
If you note I agree with Streetcop and his 95% comment.
Note: To people reading this - I've done a **** load of road safety research in all fields, its my job
Research is all very well but, as my biology teacher used to say, 'nothing is better than a bit of practical'. I take it you have never been on a bike?
>> Edited by mattrsv on Tuesday 13th July 11:17
kurgis said:
Yes i've been on a bike - as a pillion Quite a few times in fact - have I ridden one - no.
Sorry it still smacks to me as incredibly dangerous, especially if after you've followed someone for some distance, flashed them to get them to try and shift over, and they havn't (i.e. we're talking about some who isn't checking their mirrors...), that to pull that at those speeds.. well, grim basically.
Flash them?? Where did that come from? You can you road position as an indicator to other road users politely, but then you would know that if you rode a bike!
To you whom think i'm trolling - if I was, the post would of been a lot harsher, and more personal - I'm just putting my view over about something i'm having difficulty getting my head round,
What are you having trouble getting your head around?
if you can't hack that - tough shit, i'll say what I what, and what I think - just like most of you do on here.
Fair enough!! No problems there and I am interested in views, hence the post in the first place
Mel, I agree with most of what you said there (apart from the first sentance), as I said before obviously it is up to me to make sure I stay safe, not rely upon other road users.
"I think one of the earlier comments was quite insightful - here are people openly admitting to carrying out an illegal and potentially dangerous manouver - yet they are perfect and everyone else is a numpty.....most people always like to blame others... "
Which comment??? Is this the none existent quote like the 'flashing lights' one from earlier?
I don't have time to look in detail, but cannot remember anyone saying that all car drivers are numpties, or to blame, in fact , quite the opposite. Nor have I, or anyone else said they are perfect. I accept that people may not see me and I ride accordingly. I do not expect everyone to check there mirrors every 3 seconds, nor do I expect everyone to not make a mistake at any time. That said, there are without doubt idiots (don't even bother Gone, I already know you think I am one of them) on the road in all forms of vehicle and I am sure me all come across these from time to time.
There have been a couple of mis-quoted comments, or suggestions on here. Possibly this is one? (Primed and ready to be flamed, as I have not looked through the whole thread). There has been mention of cars not moving over and we all know that this happens too, no big deal for me. No drama, (no flashing of lights etc) undertake. If the traffic is queued in the outside lane because it is busy, no drama, undertake. Approaching junctions, where cars may want to manoeuver, don't undertake, easy as that. We can all flow (and get) along perfectly sensibly
My safety is of my concern and I do not leave my well being on the assumed skill of others. As I have said before, I do undertake, but it is up to me to perform this safely, not to assume others have seen me and I would not chastise them for not seeing me (e.g. flashing lights)
Most people who ride a bike also drive a car. This is most certainly not an Us against Them thread!
I really have to get on with some work now!!
FAO Mr Whippy.
For the record (seeing as you have been putting words in my mouth).
I do NOT ride or drive with an invinsible attitude, in fact, quite the opposite.
I do ride and drive with respect for the safety of others, this is of paramount importance.
Mr Whippy Said
" Well I've had, and a few members of my family for that matter have had the misfortune of meeting heroic motorcyclists on the road now, and when I hear them saying they are in full control of these 400bhp/tonne+ bikes I simply laugh to myself. "
My motorbike is actually around 600bhp per tonne (kinda average these days) and I have to say, I ride within full control of it day in day out. That remark smacks of a 'motorbikes should be banned' attitude, but I would hate to be putting words in your mouth .
For the record (seeing as you have been putting words in my mouth).
I do NOT ride or drive with an invinsible attitude, in fact, quite the opposite.
I do ride and drive with respect for the safety of others, this is of paramount importance.
Mr Whippy Said
" Well I've had, and a few members of my family for that matter have had the misfortune of meeting heroic motorcyclists on the road now, and when I hear them saying they are in full control of these 400bhp/tonne+ bikes I simply laugh to myself. "
My motorbike is actually around 600bhp per tonne (kinda average these days) and I have to say, I ride within full control of it day in day out. That remark smacks of a 'motorbikes should be banned' attitude, but I would hate to be putting words in your mouth
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