Sold a car with faulty thermostats - my rights?

[TroubledSoul]

Hi folks. My new (to me) E60 BMW 535d has knackered thermostats and doesn't get up to full operating temp when on the move. This is turn will lead to DPF issues if it isn't addressed. Had the car less than a week and finally managed to check this last night and this morning.

I have emailed the dealer, who explicitly told me via email that the thermostats were fine when I asked him to check, pre-purchase, and he wants (predictably) to go via the AA warranty we got with the car. I expected this, but am not thrilled after reading up on AA warranties. I have read tales of people being told to take their cars to the nearest Halfords for repairs, and this part of the T&C's fills me with dread:

AA Warranty said:

5. AA Warranty reserve the right to agree or nominate a repairer. Should the
Dealer Care Extended Guarantee holder elect to take the vehicle to a repairer
other than that agreed or nominated, AA Warranty will accept the Dealer Care
Extended Guarantee holders choice. The liability in this case, will not exceed
the labour and components costs as charged by the nominated repairer. AA
Warranty reserve the right to remove the covered vehicle to a repairer of their
choosing.

Now I don't think that I am outside of my rights to want to take the car to BMW and have it put right then bill the dealer? I am happy enough to go via the warranty initially and see what they say, but if there's anything that I don't like about it, or they put up resistance to paying out, then I will pursue the dealer, as I believe SOGA covers me as far as being sold the car with a fault goes.

I don't even mind if the AA pay the amount their nominated garage would charge and then I get the difference from the dealer, but would going via the warranty absolve the dealer of any obligation to put this right at no cost to me?

Interested in finding out if I am on the right track here?

Edited by TroubledSoul on Thursday 26th September 15:24

[TroubledSoul]

ging84 said:

You bought a second hand BMW from an independent dealer, what makes you feel you have the right to have BMW fix it at the dealers expense ?

Because I have the right to have the car in the condition it was described as being in. Are you telling me that the dealer should not have to conform to the Sale of Goods Act?

Honestly, it might seem fashionable to try and nit pick people on here these days, but in reality it's just sad.

[TroubledSoul]

Pete Eroleum said:

Don't know about the legal side, but are you sure you have the fault diagnosed correctly?

Does the temp needle move at all? And, more importantly, do the water-hoses remain cold?

Unlikely to cause DPF probs as they just need hot exhaust gas to start burning off the crud rather than
hot cooling-system water.

Also, it has 2 thermostats does it? And they've both gone faulty at the same time?

If it were mine I'd take it to a Beemer specialist and just get a few minutes of their time to have a quick
look and see if they agree with a probable diagnosis and start from there.

I would urge you to have as good an idea as possible of what it might cost to fix, to give you an idea of
how much time/money you might like to spend persuing your complaint.

I've owned many BMW's and this seems to be a common fault throughout the range. When one stat goes, the other usually follows.

I have diagnosed the fault using the hidden OBC menu, which gives a readout on the dash of the temp.

BMW have quoted £517 but that was just the stats. I'd like the water pump done too if all that is being done, but I would have no issue in paying for the water pump myself, seeing as it wouldn't strictly be necessary for resolution of the fault.

[TroubledSoul]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

No, not at all. I'd happily pay for the water pump myself as it isn't faulty and I wouldn't expect it to be covered.

And I'm not spikey at all, I just hate people being so quick to have a go on here these days.

I'm happy to take it to a specialist, that's really not a problem. I only said BMW as they are nearby and it's easier in all honesty.

For the record, I haven't said anything remote threatening or that would get the dealer's back up. I've simply let him know I have discovered the fault, said I can understand how it may have been missed, and what would he like to do to resolve it?

Pretty friendly stuff in all honesty.

He's asked me to go via warranty, and I understand why he would, but he has now told me he'd wait a couple of weeks before contacting the warranty co. which smacks to me of him not wanting them to say "it must have been faulty when you bought it and is the dealer's problem".

I've got no reason to be funny with him unless he starts fobbing me off and refusing to help.

[TroubledSoul]

Oh and just to add, it does have FSH. Mainly BMW but specialist more recently. In fact it went through a service just 3k ago which is quite annoying as you'd have hoped they would have detected this.

I've always used specialists to be honest so I do know how much cheaper they are generally and I've always liked dealing with them. As I say, the BMW dealer is much nearer to me than the nearest reputable specialist, which is why I'd prefer going there.

I would of course be happy to travel to save a couple of hundred quid if the warranty co. asked for that. It really wouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't accept a request to take it to a Halfords Autocentre.

My main worry is that dealing with the warranty co. may absolve the dealer of his responsibility to make it right.

[TroubledSoul]

valais said:

They'll be a clause in his policy... anything in x weeks is his responsibility. It's to stop them using the warranty to pay for car they bought and sold as defective. Basically the situation you have.

That's what I thought. So I will contact them, expecting to be rebuffed and then will go back to him.

[TroubledSoul]

Muzzer79 said:

TroubledSoul said:

Now I don't think that I am outside of my rights to want to take the car to BMW and have it put right then bill the dealer? I am happy enough to go via the warranty initially and see what they say, but if there's anything that I don't like about it, or they put up resistance to paying out, then I will pursue the dealer, as I believe SOGA covers me as far as being sold the car with a fault goes.

I think you're outside of your rights.

IF the dealer accepts that he needs to get the thermostats done (and it is an if) then he can get that work done to a suitable standard where he chooses - it certainly doesn't have to be at BMW, unless they're only ones that can do it.

How can you prove that the car was sold with faulty thermostats? It passed a dealer inspection - how can you prove they haven't been damaged during the week you've had it?

Quite simply; I don't have to. SOGA says that the dealer would have to prove the fault wasn't there at the time of sale. How can he prove that the fault didn't exist when it did? Because he signed a bit of paper saying it had been inspected?

Surely that won't wash?

In all fairness, I have said that I'd be happy for a specialist to do it. I'd actually be a bit sceptical about letting the dealer do it or have one of his preferred garages do it, but know that if he insisted then I might have to bite the bullet on that one.

[TroubledSoul]

Thanks guys.

I've had a hell of a day today and this has just been another layer of stress piled on.

I will speak to the AA warranty about the work and gather my options. From there I can decide what to do re: chase the dealer or whatever.

Thanks all.

[TroubledSoul]

I didn't check, no. I asked him in advance and took it at face value as I couldn't remember how to access the hidden menu to check the temp.

I tested it on a 24 mile commute. This is my 2nd BMW diesel.

[TroubledSoul]

Roo said:

So there was nothing amiss when you test drove it.

You misunderstand me. I tested the thermostats this morning on my 24 mile commute.

[TroubledSoul]

DrDeAtH said:

Ok, just get it fixed at a trusted garage. Then move on with your life. It's a thermostat, they have moving parts, they fail eventually.


All this talk of suing the dealer is the new PH thing. For something this trivial, why bother.

I am not going to be suing the dealer

It's a bit extreme, isn't it?

I should have checked pre-sale and will likely just get it done myself. I'm just a bit miffed that he said it was all good. The problem I have is that he is going to fob me off repeatedly. He has even said if the warranty won't cover it then get the garage I use to claim for something else instead. Seriously, wtf?

I'm really not sure I can be bothered to fight over a couple of hundred quid, with the car not getting sorted until it is all resolved etc.

I've actually done this very job myself before. It's not particularly difficult and I expect the indy I have contacted to come back with a sub £300 quote.

[TroubledSoul]

Alright, well, an update. I decided that I shouldn't have to pay for it and figured out what I wanted to say.

I emailed the dealer this morning:

My Email said:

Hi XXX,

Hope you're well. I am just contacting you to let you know that I have been advised that under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 it is actually down to the trader to rectify faults present at time of sale, rather than go through a warranty etc. and that the car must be as described at the time of sale.

As I have no wish to become a problem customer or a pain in the backside for you guys, I am happy to get the repair done myself and invoice you for it if it's easier. I have been quoted £517 by BMW and £246 by a local BMW specialist. I'm more than happy to have the work done by the specialist rather than the BMW main dealer.

In all honesty, I am not thrilled at the condition of the wheels, which have been touched up rather than given the promised refurb, and I don't think a great job was done of the paint correction on the rear bumper, but I can live with those things so long as the thermostats are sorted, as having the vehicle in proper mechanical order is far more important to me.

I look forward to hearing back from you and hope you can understand my desire to see things put right with as little hassle as possible.

Many thanks,
TroubledSoul

I received the following not long after:

Dealer Email said:

Hi TroubledSoul, the problem we have is we don’t think there is a problem now? We had the garage do the relavent checks and they are completely happy with the thermostats?
Im sorry to hear you are not happy with the alloys, we have paid for full refurbishments please send me pics so I can discuss it with the wheel company!

Ive spoke with the owner and he suggests if you are not happy about the thermostats or alloys then we are are sorry and if you wish to return the car for a full refund then we will happily do that?

A little bit unexpected in all honesty. I am currently mulling over what to do, but there are no others in the same price bracket with this spec. I don't want to give up the HUD or the comfort seats, as both are fantastic features that really add to the car for me.

The other things is, with buying this car, upgrading my phone last week and recently obtaining a credit card, I doubt I'd get finance very easily again until a good 6 - 12 months has passed, so could be shooting myself in the foot were I to return the car. I could very easily end up with just my £6k cash to spend on a replacement. It's far more hassle than I really want.

I can't fault them for so readily offering to refund, but it seems like overkill and I would rather keep the car but have the thermostats done than give it back and have to find another.

What are peoples' thoughts?

[TroubledSoul]

That's what I thought.

However, I don't want to return the car, I just want the fault rectifying

It would be far too much hassle to find another and I don't want to keep hammering my credit file and risk not being able to get finance if I did have to find another. I'm quite cautious about this as I used to have a terrible credit record and have spent the last few years meticulously repairing it.

[TroubledSoul]

Hmm... I was trying to come across as friendly rather than bolshy. I just wanted to say "look, I'm not out to cause you trouble, but I do know my rights and that this is a fault you should be sorting."

I'm not sure there's an easy way to say that without it coming across as it has.

[TroubledSoul]

Blue Oval84 said:

There isn't unfortunately

I think that the problem is that for most people, a thermostat is deemed as working when the car starts, rises to temp and doesn't overheat. Do they know that you're actually wanting them to check the computers to read the exact engine temp?

Unfortunately as has been said, they probably now think that if you have any problems with the car then you'll be darkening their doorstep for months to come and have, quite reasonably offered you a full refund. I also think that this offer would make it harder for you to claim they've breached SOGA (but someone who knows what they're talking about may think differently)

I'd just find a trusted independent and get them done yourself, I definitely wouldn't give up a 5 Series with comfort seats, they make the car IMO.

They do, and as my partner suffers from chronic muscle and joint aches, these seats are a godsend. And now that I have had the HUD display also, I really wouldn't want a car without these two things.

I fear his offer of a refund is to make me unable to chase him. He knows he would sell the car again quite easily IMO and so there's no skin off of their noses if they refund and take it back. Alternatively they may just be unhappy that a customer is unhappy with the car and want to take it back and refund said customer as they may feel it is the right thing to do. I don't want to presumptuous to be honest.

I have replied back I thanked him for the very reasonable offer of a refund but advised him that I would be reluctant to return the car as it is the spec I want and would be very happy if this issue was resolved.

[TroubledSoul]

dingg said:

Troubled Soul = customer from hell

the garage has offered you a full refund , you are not going to get anything else out of them.

suck it up or take the car back for refund

Dingg = Idiot.

How am I a customer from hell? If I was, I'd have asked for all sorts!

[TroubledSoul]

dingg said:

you are whinging about wheels AFTER you inspected the car , you're whinging about the paintwork AFTER inspecting the car

the dealer could find nothing wrong with the thermostat (in his opinion there's nowt wrong with the car)

he offered you a full refund to get rid of you , you do not want that

you will never be happy (in his eyes)

= customer from hell

my take on thing is :-

you will end up getting the job done yourself and suing the garage in the small claims court for the cost.

you will lose your case , the garage has offered your money back - TAKE IT thats all you're going to get.

No I am not, I am highlighting that there were small things that weren't quite right but because I still liked the car overall, I haven't complained about them.

I have merely expressed tot hem that I am not one to just complain about things off the cuff and want them fixing. It's only when a mechanical issue has reared its head that I have requested assistance.

I don't think that that's unreasonable.

Why on earth should I return a car that I am otherwise happy with? It's really nice of them to offer to refund and I have said as much to them. I appreciate it.

[TroubledSoul]

ThunderSpook said:

I'd just like to reiterate my earlier post, and add that if it's the car you want then it's probably just easier to get it fixed yourself.

I can even send you a copy of the invoice if it would help with negotiations. Even £246 from an indie sounds pricey.

Thanks, I completely missed that. I'd be very interested to see the invoice if you would. Many thanks!

[TroubledSoul]

markmullen said:

Have you had it properly diagnosed?

I have, yes.

[TroubledSoul]

I think some just like to antagonise. Others want to give the impression that they have so much money they just take these kinds of things by bending over and paying out.

I only wanted a bit of advice regarding my right to have it rectified.

And just because I'd rather keep the car than get a refund, that doesn't make me a problem customer!