Guess what - used car purchase problem. Help?
Discussion
I'll try to cover all the points people usually ask in threads like these in one hit, apologies if I miss anything.
Long story short, wifey has bought herself a 2007 Pug 207 GTi. 34k miles, full pug history, one private owner, very nice condition. Paid five grand. Picked the car up 22/03/14.
The day after she bought it the EML lit and the car displayed a "De-pollution system fault" message. I know this is a common problem on this car and it can have various causes, some innocuous and some downright engine-destroying so I don't need advice on that thanks
We gave it a couple of days in case the light cleared and then contacted the dealer.
At the first attempt (28/03/14) they sent it to their indie who cleared the code and just gave the car back. The warning came back after a few days.
At the second attempt about a week later the indie diagnosed a bad lambda sensor and replaced it, cleared the codes, fault came back after a few days.
At the third attempt (14/04/14) the indie takes it back stating it might need the other lambda sensor replacing, but it turns out they're stumped. They end up sending it to a Pug main dealer but the indie it was originally at had cleared the codes so Peugeot couldn't find anything and have done nothing except a diagnostic check and a road test where the EML didn't come back on again. They had the car for three weeks in total.
Guess what? EML came back on again today.
It's an hour each way to get to the supplying dealer and although they've said they will take it back again to get the fault fixed and supply a courtesy car my wife is at the end of her tether with it and wants rid. The last time we collected the car my wife did ask if they would take the car back if the warning came on and got a flat refusal - "we'd never take a car back".
Do we have any legal grounds for rejection under SOGA? Personally I think not (or at least not without one hell of a fight) because the car still runs and drives, it's very annoying but not exactly rare to have a fault on a seven year old used car and the selling dealer is being as helpful as they can be. My wife has had enough of it and wants rid so I thought I'd put it out there for any of our resident legal beagles to hopefully give me a steer. If we have to give the dealer another crack at repairing it then so be it.
Thanks,
John
Long story short, wifey has bought herself a 2007 Pug 207 GTi. 34k miles, full pug history, one private owner, very nice condition. Paid five grand. Picked the car up 22/03/14.
The day after she bought it the EML lit and the car displayed a "De-pollution system fault" message. I know this is a common problem on this car and it can have various causes, some innocuous and some downright engine-destroying so I don't need advice on that thanks
We gave it a couple of days in case the light cleared and then contacted the dealer.
At the first attempt (28/03/14) they sent it to their indie who cleared the code and just gave the car back. The warning came back after a few days.
At the second attempt about a week later the indie diagnosed a bad lambda sensor and replaced it, cleared the codes, fault came back after a few days.
At the third attempt (14/04/14) the indie takes it back stating it might need the other lambda sensor replacing, but it turns out they're stumped. They end up sending it to a Pug main dealer but the indie it was originally at had cleared the codes so Peugeot couldn't find anything and have done nothing except a diagnostic check and a road test where the EML didn't come back on again. They had the car for three weeks in total.
Guess what? EML came back on again today.
It's an hour each way to get to the supplying dealer and although they've said they will take it back again to get the fault fixed and supply a courtesy car my wife is at the end of her tether with it and wants rid. The last time we collected the car my wife did ask if they would take the car back if the warning came on and got a flat refusal - "we'd never take a car back".
Do we have any legal grounds for rejection under SOGA? Personally I think not (or at least not without one hell of a fight) because the car still runs and drives, it's very annoying but not exactly rare to have a fault on a seven year old used car and the selling dealer is being as helpful as they can be. My wife has had enough of it and wants rid so I thought I'd put it out there for any of our resident legal beagles to hopefully give me a steer. If we have to give the dealer another crack at repairing it then so be it.
Thanks,
John
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 10th May 11:29
Thanks for the comments all.
To be fair to them the selling dealer have been really good, they sold the car with a warranty through a third party that doesn't cover diagnostic charges, pretty standard stuff. When we first called them about the fault and said we didn't want to pay to have the fault diagnosed because it happened pretty much immediately they were on- side straight away.
They've never once quibbled about having the car back and have been apologetic about the fault the whole way through. At the end of the day they're in the hands of the garage they ask to fix the problem just as much as we would be.
I strongly suspect the previous owner had the codes cleared and then traded it in as it always seems to take about 100 to 150 miles for the fault to show up. I wish I still had my obd reader as I bet if I check the live data the fuel trims are constantly adapting until they go out of range and throw the fault code..... Could be something poxy like an air leak, could be something horrific like high pressure fuel pump failure or the timing is gradually drifting out of whack (design fault on this engine)
It's a shame because it's a cracking little car, it's got the octane pack on it which gives brilliant wing-backed recaro-style seats and it's a hoot to drive.
I'm hoping we can get it in to our local pug dealer and get them to bill the selling dealer direct.
I'll update once it's sorted, threads which just stop without a resolution are annoying
To be fair to them the selling dealer have been really good, they sold the car with a warranty through a third party that doesn't cover diagnostic charges, pretty standard stuff. When we first called them about the fault and said we didn't want to pay to have the fault diagnosed because it happened pretty much immediately they were on- side straight away.
They've never once quibbled about having the car back and have been apologetic about the fault the whole way through. At the end of the day they're in the hands of the garage they ask to fix the problem just as much as we would be.
I strongly suspect the previous owner had the codes cleared and then traded it in as it always seems to take about 100 to 150 miles for the fault to show up. I wish I still had my obd reader as I bet if I check the live data the fuel trims are constantly adapting until they go out of range and throw the fault code..... Could be something poxy like an air leak, could be something horrific like high pressure fuel pump failure or the timing is gradually drifting out of whack (design fault on this engine)
It's a shame because it's a cracking little car, it's got the octane pack on it which gives brilliant wing-backed recaro-style seats and it's a hoot to drive.
I'm hoping we can get it in to our local pug dealer and get them to bill the selling dealer direct.
I'll update once it's sorted, threads which just stop without a resolution are annoying
Wow..... this thread escalated quickly
To answer some of the points:
My comment about the OBD reader was really just for my own curiosity and also to give me a guide as to whether the garage are trying to BS us. I know quite a lot about cars and my job is a diagnostician in a different field so I understand the processes they're following, but I don't fix cars for a living so I have to accept "the experts" are looking at it. Given we're not paying for the work it can just keep going back until it's fixed.
It's true that there are a lot of potential causes for this error on the 207 GTi (and yes it does share the Mini Cooper S engine).
It doesn't seem to affect the way the car drives - I say "doesn't seem to" because my wife isn't a car person at all and isn't likely to notice a problem unless it was obvious (juddering/limp-home mode/etc).
The latest update is that the supplying dealer are happy for the car to go to our local Pug dealer on the basis that the supplying dealer will authorise and pick up the tab for the work. Don't think we could ask for much more really as it removes the problem of the two hour round trip and makes things much more convenient all round.
All I have to do is make sure that the local Pug dealer understand we've already been round the "clear the codes and see if it comes back" stage of the investigation (twice) and if they just clear the codes I will say nasty hurty words to them
To answer some of the points:
My comment about the OBD reader was really just for my own curiosity and also to give me a guide as to whether the garage are trying to BS us. I know quite a lot about cars and my job is a diagnostician in a different field so I understand the processes they're following, but I don't fix cars for a living so I have to accept "the experts" are looking at it. Given we're not paying for the work it can just keep going back until it's fixed.
It's true that there are a lot of potential causes for this error on the 207 GTi (and yes it does share the Mini Cooper S engine).
It doesn't seem to affect the way the car drives - I say "doesn't seem to" because my wife isn't a car person at all and isn't likely to notice a problem unless it was obvious (juddering/limp-home mode/etc).
The latest update is that the supplying dealer are happy for the car to go to our local Pug dealer on the basis that the supplying dealer will authorise and pick up the tab for the work. Don't think we could ask for much more really as it removes the problem of the two hour round trip and makes things much more convenient all round.
All I have to do is make sure that the local Pug dealer understand we've already been round the "clear the codes and see if it comes back" stage of the investigation (twice) and if they just clear the codes I will say nasty hurty words to them
Just as an update - and thanks for all the ongoing advice, it is appreciated - the supplying dealer spoke to our local Peugeot garage and they weren't keen to take on an issue that another dealer had started investigating (even though all that had happened was a code reset and a no fault found).
So it's going back to the Peugeot garage an hour away - but the supplying dealer is sending someone up to collect the car from us, leave us a courtesy car to run around in and they will also deliver the car back to us when Peugeot have finished with it.
Annoying though it is to have the fault in the first place I still can't fault the supplying dealer's efforts to help us - refreshing after only ever reading horror stories.
So it's going back to the Peugeot garage an hour away - but the supplying dealer is sending someone up to collect the car from us, leave us a courtesy car to run around in and they will also deliver the car back to us when Peugeot have finished with it.
Annoying though it is to have the fault in the first place I still can't fault the supplying dealer's efforts to help us - refreshing after only ever reading horror stories.
No problem with insurance on the courtesy car, my wife is covered to drive it FOC but I'm not. Fair enough.
They collected the car as promised, left a car for us to use and promised not to bring the 207 back until it was properly fixed. The supplying dealer must be getting pretty fed up with it too having burnt over £200 so far in diagnostic fees and failed repairs.....
I'm assuming there will be a point where they will just agree to take the car back and auction it off if the repair cost is too high, but we're just waiting to see what happens next now.
They collected the car as promised, left a car for us to use and promised not to bring the 207 back until it was properly fixed. The supplying dealer must be getting pretty fed up with it too having burnt over £200 so far in diagnostic fees and failed repairs.....
I'm assuming there will be a point where they will just agree to take the car back and auction it off if the repair cost is too high, but we're just waiting to see what happens next now.
t!Very true, although given the recent weather a 207 GTi with nice cold climate control would have been preferable to a clapped out '02 Corolla without working AC. It's far from an equivalent car and that's starting to grate but as you rightly say the dealer is being very good so mustn't grumble.
Just can't quite believe how useless Peugeot have been, no hint of an apology, no stock anywhere in the UK and no explanation as to why.
Still, on the plus side at this rate we'll have a very, very low mileage 207 for its age
Just can't quite believe how useless Peugeot have been, no hint of an apology, no stock anywhere in the UK and no explanation as to why.
Still, on the plus side at this rate we'll have a very, very low mileage 207 for its age
We don't want a pattern part for that ^^^^ reason and also because if the fault does come back we don't want "well, you fitted an aftermarket cat, tough luck".
As to how they've diagnosed it, we have no idea, it's a Pug main dealer doing the diagnosis and they say it's a knackered cat causing the issue so that's what we're going with.
If we're being lied to about the parts availability it's Peugeot UK who are doing it - I'm cynical so made sure the missus called Peugeot customer services directly to complain about the delay and they confirmed there weren't any available.
Still, it could be a lot worse, we might be footing the bill ourselves.
As to how they've diagnosed it, we have no idea, it's a Pug main dealer doing the diagnosis and they say it's a knackered cat causing the issue so that's what we're going with.
If we're being lied to about the parts availability it's Peugeot UK who are doing it - I'm cynical so made sure the missus called Peugeot customer services directly to complain about the delay and they confirmed there weren't any available.
Still, it could be a lot worse, we might be footing the bill ourselves.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff