Small Claims Court - Used Car - Advice Please
Discussion
Hi All,
I have recently bought a car that went wrong shortly after buying it. Basically Just after some advice on how much to claim back. I don't want to be greedy but don't feel I should have had to pay any of it. I am about to issues the first letter to give the dealer chance to reply, before commencing a court proceedings via Moneyclaim Online (tried before on a different matter, albeit unsuccessfully).
My tale of woe is as follows, apologies for the length (vagueness is to avoid any parties involved recognising anything):
I traded my previous car plus cash for a car from Dealer A to the value of approx £5500, everything seemed fine, and I was told the car would come with 12 months MOT, a full Pre Delivery Inspection, a service to manufacturer standards if required, and an RAC Gold Warranty. Within 2 weeks it became apparent the vehicle was faulty. The car’s brakes were badly worn (one caliper was seized solid and later confirmed unrepairable) and the car was providing extremely low MPG figures and felt sluggish and down on power. Upon inspection there appeared to be gaffer tape visible on boost hoses when stood looking down into the engine bay with the bonnet open. I took the car to Garage B, an independent, brand-specific specialist that I had used with my previous car and had an honest relationship with. The car was booked in for a brake repair and general health check. The car required discs, pads and a new caliper. I decided to swallow the £500 cost as par for the course when buying a used car. Garage B then started to look into the boost pipe issue. Upon attempting to replace the pipework it was discovered that the car had been subject to several makeshift attempts to fix the boost hose, which literally fell apart when the tape was removed, and also the intercooler was found to be damaged. At this point I made contact with Dealer A who offered to carry out the work at their own premises. However by this point the car was undrivable, and after this discovery I didn't particularly trust them. I had already spent over £500 repairing brakes that had apparently passed an MOT and pre-delivery inspection just weeks before.
Garage B also noted:
Exhaust flexi starting to crank,
Near side rear driveshaft pick up ring has made contact with the sensor
Both rear shock absorbers were leaking
Both rear top arms have play.
I had no way of getting the car to Dealer A as Garage B are based some 35 miles away. No option of recovery was offered, instead I was told by Dealer A it was fine to proceed and that Dealer A would cover the quoted amount of £300. Garage B proceeded to repair the car as Dealer A had agreed. However during the repairs it was found that the connectors for the intercooler had been damaged as well, and non-original parts would not fit. Thus, genuine BMW parts had to be used. The bill totalled £588 which granted is an increase to the quoted amount, however this was the cost to make the car roadworthy, after less than a month of ownership.
Dealer A then stated this cost would have to be pursued as a warranty claim, from the RAC Gold Warranty I apparently got when purchasing the vehicle. It is to be noted that this was included in the purchase price of the vehicle, but despite several requests I have received no confirmation or details for the policy. At this point communication became extremely difficult, with Dealer A avoiding any attempts of communication with Garage B, and taking days to respond to emails from myself; and me being stuck in the middle. I was then finally contacted by Dealer A (after numerous repeat emails) to inform me that Garage B would have to make the warranty claim and Dealer A could not pay any amount towards this bill, despite the car being sold in unfit condition and Dealer A originally agreeing to pay £300. I was told that this would be classed as fraud. Following this it was confirmed Garage B received no such warranty information despite Dealer A assuring me on several occasions they had, and as such no warranty claim had been started. Upon hearing this I attempted to make contact with Dealer A to obtain payment for the original £300 agreed, as a way of at least getting SOME money back, as at this point I was out of pocket to the tune of £1148. Such attempts of contact were then ignored.
1) The fact I have already paid the bill, so it is me pursuing Dealer A to recoup the costs, not Garage B pursuing them for payment, which could make things difficult.
2) Dealer A offered to repair the car BUT I had no way of getting the car to him. This is the point I feel doesn't do me any favours. I know this complicates matters. However as stated above, by the time the full extent of the issues was apparent, I didn't particular trust them to do the work to a satisfactory standard.
3) I should have returned the vehicle for a refund, but these discoveries occurred incrementally, meaning for some time I didn't see the wood for the trees. I begrudgingly paid the bill for the brakes but the other failures made me think I perhaps shouldn't have.
My main question is, do I pursue Dealer A for the total amount (as the vehicle was not fit for purpose), the amount relating to items not subject to wear & tear (i.e. total minus the cost of the brakes), or just the amount they initially agreed to pay? Which would leave be £800 out of pocket
Or is the 'done thing' to go for the full amount and then compromise when the ball is in motion?
Thanks for reading this, and thanks in advance for any advice given - I just want to get some money back and book some track days for my 172!
I have recently bought a car that went wrong shortly after buying it. Basically Just after some advice on how much to claim back. I don't want to be greedy but don't feel I should have had to pay any of it. I am about to issues the first letter to give the dealer chance to reply, before commencing a court proceedings via Moneyclaim Online (tried before on a different matter, albeit unsuccessfully).
My tale of woe is as follows, apologies for the length (vagueness is to avoid any parties involved recognising anything):
I traded my previous car plus cash for a car from Dealer A to the value of approx £5500, everything seemed fine, and I was told the car would come with 12 months MOT, a full Pre Delivery Inspection, a service to manufacturer standards if required, and an RAC Gold Warranty. Within 2 weeks it became apparent the vehicle was faulty. The car’s brakes were badly worn (one caliper was seized solid and later confirmed unrepairable) and the car was providing extremely low MPG figures and felt sluggish and down on power. Upon inspection there appeared to be gaffer tape visible on boost hoses when stood looking down into the engine bay with the bonnet open. I took the car to Garage B, an independent, brand-specific specialist that I had used with my previous car and had an honest relationship with. The car was booked in for a brake repair and general health check. The car required discs, pads and a new caliper. I decided to swallow the £500 cost as par for the course when buying a used car. Garage B then started to look into the boost pipe issue. Upon attempting to replace the pipework it was discovered that the car had been subject to several makeshift attempts to fix the boost hose, which literally fell apart when the tape was removed, and also the intercooler was found to be damaged. At this point I made contact with Dealer A who offered to carry out the work at their own premises. However by this point the car was undrivable, and after this discovery I didn't particularly trust them. I had already spent over £500 repairing brakes that had apparently passed an MOT and pre-delivery inspection just weeks before.
Garage B also noted:
Exhaust flexi starting to crank,
Near side rear driveshaft pick up ring has made contact with the sensor
Both rear shock absorbers were leaking
Both rear top arms have play.
I had no way of getting the car to Dealer A as Garage B are based some 35 miles away. No option of recovery was offered, instead I was told by Dealer A it was fine to proceed and that Dealer A would cover the quoted amount of £300. Garage B proceeded to repair the car as Dealer A had agreed. However during the repairs it was found that the connectors for the intercooler had been damaged as well, and non-original parts would not fit. Thus, genuine BMW parts had to be used. The bill totalled £588 which granted is an increase to the quoted amount, however this was the cost to make the car roadworthy, after less than a month of ownership.
Dealer A then stated this cost would have to be pursued as a warranty claim, from the RAC Gold Warranty I apparently got when purchasing the vehicle. It is to be noted that this was included in the purchase price of the vehicle, but despite several requests I have received no confirmation or details for the policy. At this point communication became extremely difficult, with Dealer A avoiding any attempts of communication with Garage B, and taking days to respond to emails from myself; and me being stuck in the middle. I was then finally contacted by Dealer A (after numerous repeat emails) to inform me that Garage B would have to make the warranty claim and Dealer A could not pay any amount towards this bill, despite the car being sold in unfit condition and Dealer A originally agreeing to pay £300. I was told that this would be classed as fraud. Following this it was confirmed Garage B received no such warranty information despite Dealer A assuring me on several occasions they had, and as such no warranty claim had been started. Upon hearing this I attempted to make contact with Dealer A to obtain payment for the original £300 agreed, as a way of at least getting SOME money back, as at this point I was out of pocket to the tune of £1148. Such attempts of contact were then ignored.
- **
1) The fact I have already paid the bill, so it is me pursuing Dealer A to recoup the costs, not Garage B pursuing them for payment, which could make things difficult.
2) Dealer A offered to repair the car BUT I had no way of getting the car to him. This is the point I feel doesn't do me any favours. I know this complicates matters. However as stated above, by the time the full extent of the issues was apparent, I didn't particular trust them to do the work to a satisfactory standard.
3) I should have returned the vehicle for a refund, but these discoveries occurred incrementally, meaning for some time I didn't see the wood for the trees. I begrudgingly paid the bill for the brakes but the other failures made me think I perhaps shouldn't have.
My main question is, do I pursue Dealer A for the total amount (as the vehicle was not fit for purpose), the amount relating to items not subject to wear & tear (i.e. total minus the cost of the brakes), or just the amount they initially agreed to pay? Which would leave be £800 out of pocket
Or is the 'done thing' to go for the full amount and then compromise when the ball is in motion?
Thanks for reading this, and thanks in advance for any advice given - I just want to get some money back and book some track days for my 172!
Just to clarify to Vaud, the point I'm raising isn't that I live 35 miles from Dealer A, I don't. The point I'm raising is that when the issue of the car having had a badly bodged boost hose repair arose, the car was undrivable due to issues that should have been picked up in the pre-delivery inspection AND 35 miles from Dealer A. It wasn't a case of rolling it down the street.
Akirk - As I suspected. The thing is, it's not a case of being liable for the repairs, as I have already had to pay. The bill is settled with Garage B. To clarify even further the course of events now the main meat has been explained:
I buy the car and newness wears off/I get used to the car.
I realise the car should do better MPG, and notice a squeaking/grinding noise from front passenger side.
I checked the pads and there seemed to be plenty of meat left, however soon it was apparent the inner pad was down to the backing pad. As soon as I heard the metal-on-metal noise I parked the car up and booked it in. Thinking 2 birds, 1 stone and all that.
Told the Garage B about the brakes, also mentioned I may have a split boost hose.
Garage B called, "Brakes are done, £500 please, do you want us to take a look at the hoses?"
I agreed, thinking "Ah, bad luck"
Garage B ring back to explain as they peeled the gaffer tape off the boost hose it literally disintegrated in their hands. Also, several silicone adaptors had been pieced together to bodge a longer hose.
I ring Dealer A, explain what has happened. Dealer A says "We will do the work, we're great, we're cheap bring it down!"
I explain the car can't be driven, and say Garage B have quoted £300 to fix. Dealer A say "Go ahead with the fix we will pay", Garage B get given the go ahead.
Garage B ring up to confirm the job has been done, but as the hose was replaced the intercooler was found to be damaged, and BMW parts would have to be used, so the price was nearer to £600.
Dealer A sticks two fingers up at me.
I suppose I can see where Dealer A is coming from with this, but personally I think they bodged the fix, and its the further finagling and failure to see the bigger picture that they sold a car with existing faults and a non existent warranty (that was promised and paid for) that is frustrating.
To separate the figures, its essentially £500 brakes, £688 boost hose/intercooler.
Akirk - As I suspected. The thing is, it's not a case of being liable for the repairs, as I have already had to pay. The bill is settled with Garage B. To clarify even further the course of events now the main meat has been explained:
I buy the car and newness wears off/I get used to the car.
I realise the car should do better MPG, and notice a squeaking/grinding noise from front passenger side.
I checked the pads and there seemed to be plenty of meat left, however soon it was apparent the inner pad was down to the backing pad. As soon as I heard the metal-on-metal noise I parked the car up and booked it in. Thinking 2 birds, 1 stone and all that.
Told the Garage B about the brakes, also mentioned I may have a split boost hose.
Garage B called, "Brakes are done, £500 please, do you want us to take a look at the hoses?"
I agreed, thinking "Ah, bad luck"
Garage B ring back to explain as they peeled the gaffer tape off the boost hose it literally disintegrated in their hands. Also, several silicone adaptors had been pieced together to bodge a longer hose.
I ring Dealer A, explain what has happened. Dealer A says "We will do the work, we're great, we're cheap bring it down!"
I explain the car can't be driven, and say Garage B have quoted £300 to fix. Dealer A say "Go ahead with the fix we will pay", Garage B get given the go ahead.
Garage B ring up to confirm the job has been done, but as the hose was replaced the intercooler was found to be damaged, and BMW parts would have to be used, so the price was nearer to £600.
Dealer A sticks two fingers up at me.
I suppose I can see where Dealer A is coming from with this, but personally I think they bodged the fix, and its the further finagling and failure to see the bigger picture that they sold a car with existing faults and a non existent warranty (that was promised and paid for) that is frustrating.
To separate the figures, its essentially £500 brakes, £688 boost hose/intercooler.
Akirk - apologies I was meaning that liability to settle the bill with Garage B has already been taken care of as I had paid them.
The warranty may have been the right way to pursue this, but I've received no confirmation of this warranty, no paperwork, no policy number, no contact numbers etc. Despite asking on numerous occasions. I felt like my options were to use Dealer A who I felt had already ripped me off, or Garage B who I knew and trusted.
Looks like the two main things that have happened here are my understandable reluctance to arrange transportation of my car back to Dealer A followed by him agreeing with my position and agreeing to pay, and the fact that Garage B proceeded with work that exceeded the quoted amount.
Genuine question here and I appreciate the help from you all, is the onus still on me to get the car back to Dealer A as it had technically broken down, or would it be on him to recover his faulty sale? It's worth adding that I also had breakdown and recovery included in the RAC Warranty, for which I'm still chasing details.
The warranty may have been the right way to pursue this, but I've received no confirmation of this warranty, no paperwork, no policy number, no contact numbers etc. Despite asking on numerous occasions. I felt like my options were to use Dealer A who I felt had already ripped me off, or Garage B who I knew and trusted.
Looks like the two main things that have happened here are my understandable reluctance to arrange transportation of my car back to Dealer A followed by him agreeing with my position and agreeing to pay, and the fact that Garage B proceeded with work that exceeded the quoted amount.
Genuine question here and I appreciate the help from you all, is the onus still on me to get the car back to Dealer A as it had technically broken down, or would it be on him to recover his faulty sale? It's worth adding that I also had breakdown and recovery included in the RAC Warranty, for which I'm still chasing details.
Edited by Jim1985 on Friday 28th July 00:22
Ekona said:
We know you've not as if it needed doing then it needed doing, but you can see why they're miffed that the cost has miraculously doubled.
Oh I totally agree. But it seemed shocking that their customer service so quickly turned to a "scr*w this guy" attitude when there was never any question over the actual failure of the car. Found a further interesting point online:
"If the car dealership agrees to repair the vehicle, these must be carried out within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to you.
If the dealer refuses, you could:
take the car elsewhere to be repaired and claim the cost"
I feel like arguing that arranging to have a car transported at my own cost could be classed as a "significant inconvenience".
"If the car dealership agrees to repair the vehicle, these must be carried out within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to you.
If the dealer refuses, you could:
take the car elsewhere to be repaired and claim the cost"
I feel like arguing that arranging to have a car transported at my own cost could be classed as a "significant inconvenience".
Thanks for all the input, very helpful replies.
Vaud - the car was drivable to Garage A, then upon peeling the tape away from the boost hose it literally fell apart, rendering the car undrivable. I'm not disputing the distance I bought the car from. It's probably the shortest distance I've travelled to purchase a car. However the issue was the Dealer said "bring it to us", I explained it was undrivable, and then they said to get the garage to fix it. I asked for them to recover it, they refused.
AKirk - the warranty would be the way to proceed IF I had ever received any details etc of the warranty, sadly I have not, despite chasing hen several times, even before all of this happened and I was still a happy customer.
Dealer A did agree to pay the £300 but not the rest, to which I asked them to at least pay that amount and we would come to an agreement regarding the other amount. No payment was made and any attempts at contact were ignored. I asked them to recover the car when he asked me to take it to them, and they declined.
I have already asked for them to pay the original £300, or at least the warranty info so I could make a claim and heard nothing. It has been a mix of email and phone calls but recently only email as I want things in writing.
By paraphrasing it may seem like I've gone straight into customer from hell mode. I haven't. I haven't sworn, I haven't shouted, I haven't threatened, I've given them time to respond, I've asked them it sort it with the garage, all the time being polite and professional. I felt like I was being fobbed off from start to finish. As it took several phone calls and a formal email to even get an initial response.
I have given Dealer A every chance to sort this other than arranging a recovery truck at my own expense. The car had no main boost hose fitted.
I didn't pursue them for the full amount initially. And then shortly afterwards compromised to them paying the original £300 they had offered. Only to be told no.
Vaud - the car was drivable to Garage A, then upon peeling the tape away from the boost hose it literally fell apart, rendering the car undrivable. I'm not disputing the distance I bought the car from. It's probably the shortest distance I've travelled to purchase a car. However the issue was the Dealer said "bring it to us", I explained it was undrivable, and then they said to get the garage to fix it. I asked for them to recover it, they refused.
AKirk - the warranty would be the way to proceed IF I had ever received any details etc of the warranty, sadly I have not, despite chasing hen several times, even before all of this happened and I was still a happy customer.
Dealer A did agree to pay the £300 but not the rest, to which I asked them to at least pay that amount and we would come to an agreement regarding the other amount. No payment was made and any attempts at contact were ignored. I asked them to recover the car when he asked me to take it to them, and they declined.
I have already asked for them to pay the original £300, or at least the warranty info so I could make a claim and heard nothing. It has been a mix of email and phone calls but recently only email as I want things in writing.
By paraphrasing it may seem like I've gone straight into customer from hell mode. I haven't. I haven't sworn, I haven't shouted, I haven't threatened, I've given them time to respond, I've asked them it sort it with the garage, all the time being polite and professional. I felt like I was being fobbed off from start to finish. As it took several phone calls and a formal email to even get an initial response.
I have given Dealer A every chance to sort this other than arranging a recovery truck at my own expense. The car had no main boost hose fitted.
I didn't pursue them for the full amount initially. And then shortly afterwards compromised to them paying the original £300 they had offered. Only to be told no.
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