How durable a Duratec tuned to 263bhp?
Discussion
As soon as I can, I plan to purchase an R400 or R500. I've test-driven an R400 and it was lovely. I mean really lovely. Just seemed to make so much sense. BUT, if I went for that, would I eventually feel like I was missing out on the sheer brutal acceleration and thrill of the R500?
There would be two potential reasons I would not go for the R500: one, I (like all of us) think I'm a good driver and like to make progress safely, but wouldn't want to take liberties with such extremity and get myself into bother? (I've read a lot about predicatability and progressiveness on or over the limits but is that true to those of us not with the last name Bovingdon or Harris?). 2, I plan to use it a lot, and with 263 being a quite high state of tune of this engine, would it require a re-build eventually? I've read lots of threads trying to find the answer to this last one, and no one's really talking about rebuilds for this engine. Does that mean even at 263bhp it's still quite low-stressed?
It's a quandry I can't decide on. Any thoughts from a 'real-world' perspective
There would be two potential reasons I would not go for the R500: one, I (like all of us) think I'm a good driver and like to make progress safely, but wouldn't want to take liberties with such extremity and get myself into bother? (I've read a lot about predicatability and progressiveness on or over the limits but is that true to those of us not with the last name Bovingdon or Harris?). 2, I plan to use it a lot, and with 263 being a quite high state of tune of this engine, would it require a re-build eventually? I've read lots of threads trying to find the answer to this last one, and no one's really talking about rebuilds for this engine. Does that mean even at 263bhp it's still quite low-stressed?
It's a quandry I can't decide on. Any thoughts from a 'real-world' perspective
To answer the first question, having the best is not a priority (and there's always gonna be someone that's got a 'better' car than mine). No, it's all about what I want from the car.
I suppose the main thing is the acceleration. The R400 I drove pulled like billio. It was a great feeling, and felt wonderfully torquey even at quite low revs, but it didn't hit me in the back and catapult me towards the horizon in the way I thought it would. I just love the idea of my right foot putting me where I want to go, when I want to go there.
This is somewhat academic as I can't afford either yet, but it's been good to hear your opinions. So I think it would be the R500. If it will cope with a lot of road driving, then the reliability issue goes out the window. The only other factor is predictability over the limit. I guess that's just something you and the car go through together. And that's another thing that attracts me to the R500 - as much effort and skill as you put in, it's always going to reward you.
I suppose the main thing is the acceleration. The R400 I drove pulled like billio. It was a great feeling, and felt wonderfully torquey even at quite low revs, but it didn't hit me in the back and catapult me towards the horizon in the way I thought it would. I just love the idea of my right foot putting me where I want to go, when I want to go there.
This is somewhat academic as I can't afford either yet, but it's been good to hear your opinions. So I think it would be the R500. If it will cope with a lot of road driving, then the reliability issue goes out the window. The only other factor is predictability over the limit. I guess that's just something you and the car go through together. And that's another thing that attracts me to the R500 - as much effort and skill as you put in, it's always going to reward you.
That last sentence is music to my ears. This car will take up a LOT of my spare income because I'm planning to go down the lease purchase route, so buying a car that is going to need a serious amount of money spending on it after a while is not what I fancy.
The points above about different models having different characters is important, and I still think my question on predictability over the limit is valid, despite being told it was "tosh"
. There are certain cars that have, over the years, been given the unofficial title 'widow-maker' because on the road - NOT on the track - they would grip, grip, grip and then put you into a tree. Not having had the luxury of test driving the R500, I posted onto this forum to ask about that very issue. I keep meaning to bring home my copy of evo where the R500 is road-tested in Scotland. Again, this is on the road - not on a track. Bovingdon talks about "oversteering for the length of a gear" and it not being irresponsible because the car "wants" him to. Traction is being broken at the car's rear, and is being done in relative safety because what happens is predictable. There are a lot of cars that would not "want" you to do that, but would want to kill you instead. The R500 has enough power to let you do that, and being able to fluidly and safely have fun like that is what I aspire to.
I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses to my original post, and this discussion is just what I was after.
The points above about different models having different characters is important, and I still think my question on predictability over the limit is valid, despite being told it was "tosh"
. There are certain cars that have, over the years, been given the unofficial title 'widow-maker' because on the road - NOT on the track - they would grip, grip, grip and then put you into a tree. Not having had the luxury of test driving the R500, I posted onto this forum to ask about that very issue. I keep meaning to bring home my copy of evo where the R500 is road-tested in Scotland. Again, this is on the road - not on a track. Bovingdon talks about "oversteering for the length of a gear" and it not being irresponsible because the car "wants" him to. Traction is being broken at the car's rear, and is being done in relative safety because what happens is predictable. There are a lot of cars that would not "want" you to do that, but would want to kill you instead. The R500 has enough power to let you do that, and being able to fluidly and safely have fun like that is what I aspire to. I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses to my original post, and this discussion is just what I was after.
Ok guys, I've taken up lots of time talking about all the stuff I have no experience of, so from here on in it's just for fun, and don't want laying into TOO much 
.
To answer the question "What do I want from the car?"
I plan to use the car for road driving. Apart from having the use of another car, it will be my only car and want to use it as much as possible (probably buying a cheapo little car for the depths of winter). Depending on what mood I'm in, it will be driven at 5 10ths some of the time - just to enjoy the experience, without giving it the beans. (When I first lowered myself into the seat of that R400 last year, I was taken over with the feeling that I was home).
But when I'm in the mood, to put the thing into warp speed and also to have lots of oversteery fun where it's safe to do so.
I currently drive a MkII MX-5 and love it. BUT, it's annoying a lot of the time cos it's drastically under-powered. I guess all my talk about whether to go for the R500 over the R400 is about that really - I want the car to do what I want in a straight line and because I'll be lease-purchasing, I don't want to go for something that I'll want to upgrade after a while.
I would go for a manual gearbox over the sequential on the R500, so that's not in the reckoning.
Anyway, so I'm more informed about the whole thing, I'm hiring a Roadsport for the day from Caterham Midlands in a couple of weeks. And that I'm looking forward to A LOT.
. To answer the question "What do I want from the car?"
I plan to use the car for road driving. Apart from having the use of another car, it will be my only car and want to use it as much as possible (probably buying a cheapo little car for the depths of winter). Depending on what mood I'm in, it will be driven at 5 10ths some of the time - just to enjoy the experience, without giving it the beans. (When I first lowered myself into the seat of that R400 last year, I was taken over with the feeling that I was home).
But when I'm in the mood, to put the thing into warp speed and also to have lots of oversteery fun where it's safe to do so.
I currently drive a MkII MX-5 and love it. BUT, it's annoying a lot of the time cos it's drastically under-powered. I guess all my talk about whether to go for the R500 over the R400 is about that really - I want the car to do what I want in a straight line and because I'll be lease-purchasing, I don't want to go for something that I'll want to upgrade after a while.
I would go for a manual gearbox over the sequential on the R500, so that's not in the reckoning.
Anyway, so I'm more informed about the whole thing, I'm hiring a Roadsport for the day from Caterham Midlands in a couple of weeks. And that I'm looking forward to A LOT.
Well....
I hired a Roadsport 125 from Caterham Midlands on Tuesday. And oh what fun I had. I had a headache after 5 or 6 hours of driving but it cemented my thoughts on having the Seven as my only car. I definitely would. I drove it in the country, in the city (Loughboroug and Leicester city centre), on A Roads, B Roads, Motorways, in the hard rain and the blazing sun, hood on, hood off, so it gave me (in that 6 hours) a lot of different types of driving and conditions I would face. I had some earplugs specially made at a hearing specialist when I used to play gigs a lot and play my guitar very loud. I used them on Tuesday for some of the time and found that they could make the loud engine noise (which I thought could be tiring) quieter and thus make long distances much more bareable.
I did ring HWR Motorsport in Newcastle last night to ask them about the tuning potential of the 2 litre duratec. In the conversation, i think I figured out what I actually want. One thing I want from my dream Seven is torque - mid range torque - and lots of it. The thrill of an 8500rpm redline is not for me. Call me strange but I just don't like the sound of an engine screaming at those sorts of rpm - especially a 4 cylinder engine. Brian at HWR mentioned that they sometimes fit 2.3 duratecs into S3 chassis, and I think that is what I would eventually go for. Something tuned to around 250bhp with max torque coming at something like 6000-6500rpm. I'm going up soon to have a look around and talk about the possibilities.
Tim
I hired a Roadsport 125 from Caterham Midlands on Tuesday. And oh what fun I had. I had a headache after 5 or 6 hours of driving but it cemented my thoughts on having the Seven as my only car. I definitely would. I drove it in the country, in the city (Loughboroug and Leicester city centre), on A Roads, B Roads, Motorways, in the hard rain and the blazing sun, hood on, hood off, so it gave me (in that 6 hours) a lot of different types of driving and conditions I would face. I had some earplugs specially made at a hearing specialist when I used to play gigs a lot and play my guitar very loud. I used them on Tuesday for some of the time and found that they could make the loud engine noise (which I thought could be tiring) quieter and thus make long distances much more bareable.
I did ring HWR Motorsport in Newcastle last night to ask them about the tuning potential of the 2 litre duratec. In the conversation, i think I figured out what I actually want. One thing I want from my dream Seven is torque - mid range torque - and lots of it. The thrill of an 8500rpm redline is not for me. Call me strange but I just don't like the sound of an engine screaming at those sorts of rpm - especially a 4 cylinder engine. Brian at HWR mentioned that they sometimes fit 2.3 duratecs into S3 chassis, and I think that is what I would eventually go for. Something tuned to around 250bhp with max torque coming at something like 6000-6500rpm. I'm going up soon to have a look around and talk about the possibilities.
Tim
That's interesting. Cheers for posting that David.
I don't think there's anything more innately right about a 'peaky' engine for a Seven than a torquier one. As long as engine choice doesn't interfere with weight distribution then it just comes down to preference. I don't get a buzz out of wringing an engine's neck (the Roadsport I drove the other day felt like my little friend; like we were in it together - I love that and never experienced it to that extent). I do get a huge buzz out of a lot of pull from low revs. I like a car to feel and sound solid and strong rather than highly strung. I can definitely appreciate why a lot of people would disagree though, and go for top-end power delivery.
Tim
I don't think there's anything more innately right about a 'peaky' engine for a Seven than a torquier one. As long as engine choice doesn't interfere with weight distribution then it just comes down to preference. I don't get a buzz out of wringing an engine's neck (the Roadsport I drove the other day felt like my little friend; like we were in it together - I love that and never experienced it to that extent). I do get a huge buzz out of a lot of pull from low revs. I like a car to feel and sound solid and strong rather than highly strung. I can definitely appreciate why a lot of people would disagree though, and go for top-end power delivery.
Tim
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