DSLR / Mirrorless? / Compact? - For Holidays
Discussion
Olympus /OMS would be my recommendation based on you having an DSLR. I’ve got a Panasonic TZ which I took on my last holiday but only used once, used the OMS or iPhone for the rest of the time.
An OM5 with a 14-150mm or 12-200mm gives you a 28-300mm or 24-400mm equivalent meaning you only need the one lens and gives you some significant reach. While it won’t slip into your pocket it’s fine in a small bag and pretty lightweight.
An OM5 with a 14-150mm or 12-200mm gives you a 28-300mm or 24-400mm equivalent meaning you only need the one lens and gives you some significant reach. While it won’t slip into your pocket it’s fine in a small bag and pretty lightweight.
havoc said:
Final thought - if you're shelling out £1k every couple of years on a phone just to get good camera performance, think how much proper photography kit you could accumulate over 5 or 6 years...
Pixel Pro 8 will be supported for 7 years. IPhone 15 Pro Max Ultra Super Mega probably similar given how long Apple support existing phones. Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra, 5 years. All phones with big zoom lenses and high quality cameras. Will need a battery change or two, but all these will last more than a couple of years. Plus, there is the cost of a phone that you will ‘save’.Personally, I carted round a DSLR or a Panasonix Lumix compact or both until the Google Pixel phones came out. Their computational photography was a game changer for me, the results they achieved more than satisfactory to ditch the ‘real’ cameras.
Edited by wyson on Saturday 4th November 08:31
funinhounslow said:
Riley Blue said:
I'm waiting for the latest version, the Lumix DC-TZ95D or the Sony DSC-HX99 to drop below £400 again. If anyone has a suggestion for others with a similar spec and price, please share.
I’ve just purchased a Panasonic LX-15. It doesn’t have the long zoom but is £100 less and I thought the 1” sensor and bright lens will be of more use day to day. If I need a long zoom I’ll get my DSLR out. I've tried taking photos with a phone but need something more substantial that my arthritic fingers can grip on.
Riley Blue said:
My problem (probably not shared by the OP) is that I have painful elbows, wrists and fingers and can't hold the weight of my DSLR + long zoom so need a much lighter alternative including a long zoom (for motorsport and aviation), viewfinder and RAW.
I've tried taking photos with a phone but need something more substantial that my arthritic fingers can grip on.
I've carpel tunnel syndrome quite badly in my right arm and a bit in my left. My micro-four-thirds Lumix GH2 was great but was a bit tight to hold for someone with big, clumsy hands. I went G7 next, with the same problem, then opted for a G9 as it was bigger and I didn't keep switching off AFC. The G9 is also heavier but the main advantage of MFT is lighter lenses. I've got a 25mm (50mm equiv) lens that's almost weightless, and a 100-300 (200-600) which is remarkably light for its size. I've also got the kit lens, 14-140 (work it out yourself) which again is remarkably light.I've tried taking photos with a phone but need something more substantial that my arthritic fingers can grip on.
I have a shoulder strap and, if I'm going out for a long shoot, I fit my light monopod to the camera and, if I've got a bit of a walk, I've use a belt that I can clip the monopod to to stop it bashing my leg.
I also have a lightish tripod - 3-legged thing - that I can carry over my shoulder. I use that particularly for in-camera photo-stacking or the 120mp RAW image facility.
Unlike your problem, my CTS is not progressive, but I have to rest it post shoot. I can no longer carry my gimbal.
The light camera and, particularly lenses, plus the monopod, which takes much of the weight off my arm (now arms) and the tripod with remote shutter, means I can take my camera out for the whole day.
MFT is criticised for low light photography. I've not found that myself. I went to a car show on a dull day and took the undoctored photo below, of a man promising his wife that if she stopped lying down, he'd take her to the cafe.
wyson said:
Pixel Pro 8 will be supported for 7 years. IPhone 15 Pro Max Ultra Super Mega probably similar given how long Apple support existing phones. Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra, 5 years. All phones with big zoom lenses and high quality cameras. Will need a battery change or two, but all these will last more than a couple of years. Plus, there is the cost of a phone that you will ‘save’.
Personally, I carted round a DSLR or a Panasonix Lumix compact or both until the Google Pixel phones came out. Their computational photography was a game changer for me, the results they achieved more than satisfactory to ditch the ‘real’ cameras.
I have an iPhone 15 Pro Max. Personally, I carted round a DSLR or a Panasonix Lumix compact or both until the Google Pixel phones came out. Their computational photography was a game changer for me, the results they achieved more than satisfactory to ditch the ‘real’ cameras.
Edited by wyson on Saturday 4th November 08:31
It has my most used camera in it. Always with me.
But incomparable to a Canon R5 with RF L lenses for quality.
The computational magic mobiles have is outdone by the fantastic tech in the latest Mirrorless that makes capturing any scene easy!
Birds in flight…sharp, clear. Far, far easier nowadays.
Mobiles are great for static snaps for Social Media but undone if truly great quality for all types of photography is desired.
This is also very true. So depends on the sort of compromises you are willing to accept for convenience. I probably take 3 or 4 photos and / or videos a day. Haven’t gotten my ‘real’ cameras out for years. I do accept they are probably outdated now, but haven’t felt a need for better quality than a Pixel phone can provide, so haven’t sought to replace them.
Edited by wyson on Saturday 4th November 09:01
wyson said:
Pixel Pro 8 will be supported for 7 years. IPhone 15 Pro Max Ultra Super Mega probably similar given how long Apple support existing phones. Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra, 5 years. All phones with big zoom lenses and high quality cameras. Will need a battery change or two, but all these will last more than a couple of years. Plus, there is the cost of a phone that you will ‘save’.
Personally, I carted round a DSLR or a Panasonix Lumix compact or both until the Google Pixel phones came out. Their computational photography was a game changer for me, the results they achieved more than satisfactory to ditch the ‘real’ cameras.
I've got a Pixel 6a. And the cameras are good. But that's it. Good. Not great. Personally, I carted round a DSLR or a Panasonix Lumix compact or both until the Google Pixel phones came out. Their computational photography was a game changer for me, the results they achieved more than satisfactory to ditch the ‘real’ cameras.
Not a patch on either of my SLRs (5D-III and an R7, with old Tamron 24-70 and Canon 70-200L lenses, usually) for even simple stuff like landscapes and portraits. I can imagine that, vs an entry-level SLR from 5/10 years ago with a kit lens and the settings to AUTO, the phones feel quite a bit closer...but that's completely missing the point of what an SLR CAN do.
I said it above - if you want to take more than just 'family snaps', you still need something that allows you to control aperture and shutter speed. And ideally gives you enough light-capture ability to do that in a wide range of conditions.
...but that said, I do acknowledge the power of modern software, and the convenience-factor of something that does it all for you, so you don't have to worry about setting-it-up.
havoc said:
I've got a Pixel 6a. And the cameras are good. But that's it. Good. Not great.
Not a patch on either of my SLRs (5D-III and an R7, with old Tamron 24-70 and Canon 70-200L lenses, usually) for even simple stuff like landscapes and portraits.
I said it above - if you want to take more than just 'family snaps', you still need something that allows you to control aperture and shutter speed. And ideally gives you enough light-capture ability to do that in a wide range of conditions.
...but that said, I do acknowledge the power of modern software, and the convenience-factor of something that does it all for you, so you don't have to worry about setting-it-up.
We are in total agreement! I'm obviously easier to please when it comes to photography than you. I just found your man maths a bit off before, is all. Not a patch on either of my SLRs (5D-III and an R7, with old Tamron 24-70 and Canon 70-200L lenses, usually) for even simple stuff like landscapes and portraits.
I said it above - if you want to take more than just 'family snaps', you still need something that allows you to control aperture and shutter speed. And ideally gives you enough light-capture ability to do that in a wide range of conditions.
...but that said, I do acknowledge the power of modern software, and the convenience-factor of something that does it all for you, so you don't have to worry about setting-it-up.
Edited by wyson on Saturday 4th November 13:22
I find photos from smartphone cameras tend to look fine on a phone screen, or in small size on the interweb. But as soon as I look at them in larger size on a computer screen they are almost without exception awful - chromatic aberration and distortion for Africa, muddy blurred detail with haloed oversharpened edges, black shadows and/or blown highlights etc...
They're good for convenience snapshots though, the camera you have with you always gets a better shot than the one you didn't bother bringing along.
Micro 4/3 is an option, but seems to be a bit of a dead-end, I considered it at one point but went Fuji X-series (APSC sensor) mirrorless instead - not much size/weight increase over Olympus for a significantly bigger sensor and some lovely lens quality.
They're good for convenience snapshots though, the camera you have with you always gets a better shot than the one you didn't bother bringing along.
Micro 4/3 is an option, but seems to be a bit of a dead-end, I considered it at one point but went Fuji X-series (APSC sensor) mirrorless instead - not much size/weight increase over Olympus for a significantly bigger sensor and some lovely lens quality.
Edited by GravelBen on Sunday 5th November 00:35
There are now a few high end Chinese smart phones that use the same 1 inch Sony sensor as found in the RX 100 etc and the results are fantastic (for a phone)and in some cases are equal to the RX 100.
A Sony A7C is very tempting as a small full frame camera but that depends on budget etc.
A Sony A7C is very tempting as a small full frame camera but that depends on budget etc.
I went to a talk on cameraphone use at my local camera club. She ran something like 'Black Box photography'.
I found it interesting, and there some remarkable images. However, she didn't take the room with her. I was considering using a high-end cameraphone to replace my TZ but the vast majority of cameraphone positives were covered by a compact, and mine, and most others, had benefits that are some way in the future for mounting in a phone. The one type of photography that the cameraphone excelled, I thought, was 'street photography' as a person holding one hardly stands out, whereas a camera does.
She advised wide-angle and telephoto lens attachments which seemed to negate the advantages of the cameraphone which she touted. Also, low light was a problem for the cameraphone although, she said, in-camera software coped with that.
You pays your money of course, but you pay a lot for a cameraphone. The same amount of money buys you a pretty decent mid-range mirrorless or a top of the range compact and some change.
The crowd at the talk, all from the camera club, were pretty negative to begin with so she had an uphill struggle. They were even more so at the end.
I found it interesting, and there some remarkable images. However, she didn't take the room with her. I was considering using a high-end cameraphone to replace my TZ but the vast majority of cameraphone positives were covered by a compact, and mine, and most others, had benefits that are some way in the future for mounting in a phone. The one type of photography that the cameraphone excelled, I thought, was 'street photography' as a person holding one hardly stands out, whereas a camera does.
She advised wide-angle and telephoto lens attachments which seemed to negate the advantages of the cameraphone which she touted. Also, low light was a problem for the cameraphone although, she said, in-camera software coped with that.
You pays your money of course, but you pay a lot for a cameraphone. The same amount of money buys you a pretty decent mid-range mirrorless or a top of the range compact and some change.
The crowd at the talk, all from the camera club, were pretty negative to begin with so she had an uphill struggle. They were even more so at the end.
havoc said:
Final thought - if you're shelling out £1k every couple of years on a phone just to get good camera performance, think how much proper photography kit you could accumulate over 5 or 6 years...
Since the S21U/iPhone 14 pro the actual image quality for camera phones haven't jumped that much, so there is no need to spend on a new phone every year. The big difference ofcourse the a £1k phone overall gets far more use than any £1k worth of photography equipment unless your making a living from selling photos.The next few years will be interesting, Google invented computational photography has now moved the game on with 'generative Ai' built into the Pixel Pro 8. So forget what information the sensor is capturing, the bulk of the 'work' is going to be done by 'the cloud', and reality the picture shows may bare no resemblance to actual reality.
By all accounts the Ai implementation in the Pixel 8 seems very rough, with many features not enabled yet, and length waits the data to comeback from the cloud. But these areas will improve and very quickly.
There is a brave new world of 'photography' coming, I suspect very soon any individual with the ability to be 'unique' will stand out very clearly from the crowd. Most people will be lazy and just accept what the Ai pushed out, so we'll a mass to gravitational to the mean, but the really creative photographers will be able to do things with generative Ai none us can even imagine.
mikiec said:
Olympus /OMS would be my recommendation based on you having an DSLR. I’ve got a Panasonic TZ which I took on my last holiday but only used once, used the OMS or iPhone for the rest of the time.
An OM5 with a 14-150mm or 12-200mm gives you a 28-300mm or 24-400mm equivalent meaning you only need the one lens and gives you some significant reach. While it won’t slip into your pocket it’s fine in a small bag and pretty lightweight.
I haven't used my OM5 in years. Have a collection of lens including the 12-40mm f2.8 Pro lens. Got some spare batteries, case, Gorriola stand etc. Very happy to let if go for cheap.An OM5 with a 14-150mm or 12-200mm gives you a 28-300mm or 24-400mm equivalent meaning you only need the one lens and gives you some significant reach. While it won’t slip into your pocket it’s fine in a small bag and pretty lightweight.
Riley Blue said:
For me, discussing phone cameras is pointless. I'm looking for a compact camera to replace heavy kit that I can no longer handle. The OP is looking for a similar camera for holiday use. Nether of us have indicated an interest in phones, no matter how good their cameras.
Totally get this, hence why I have my Fujifilm compact as per my earlier post. It is a totally different experience.Edited by C4ME on Sunday 5th November 08:12
gangzoom said:
havoc said:
Final thought - if you're shelling out £1k every couple of years on a phone just to get good camera performance, think how much proper photography kit you could accumulate over 5 or 6 years...
Since the S21U/iPhone 14 pro the actual image quality for camera phones haven't jumped that much, so there is no need to spend on a new phone every year. The big difference ofcourse the a £1k phone overall gets far more use than any £1k worth of photography equipment unless your making a living from selling photos.gangzoom said:
The next few years will be interesting, Google invented computational photography has now moved the game on with 'generative Ai' built into the Pixel Pro 8.
...
There is a brave new world of 'photography' coming, I suspect very soon any individual with the ability to be 'unique' will stand out very clearly from the crowd. Most people will be lazy and just accept what the Ai pushed out, so we'll a mass to gravitational to the mean, but the really creative photographers will be able to do things with generative Ai none us can even imagine.
I think the really creative photographers won't want anything to do with AI....
There is a brave new world of 'photography' coming, I suspect very soon any individual with the ability to be 'unique' will stand out very clearly from the crowd. Most people will be lazy and just accept what the Ai pushed out, so we'll a mass to gravitational to the mean, but the really creative photographers will be able to do things with generative Ai none us can even imagine.
What you're talking about is Gen-Z 'creatives' (sic) who see photography as just another tool to try to do something different, or those who primarily do corporate work where the customer will want to show how creative they are, or will want to cut costs by using a young/cheap AI-user in the place of an expensive grizzled professional.
I'd say professional videography is more likely to be a major AI adopter first - we're already seeing that in some areas as an attempt to replace all those expensive CGI employees.
CrgT16 said:
I think photography will change software and algorithms will replace bulky bodies and lenses.
Couldn't disagree more. Software has a fair way to go to compensate for poor IQ, and I don't think AI is going to radically change that. And while optics is improving gradually, it still faces physical limitations in terms of getting enough light into a sensor at the same time as reaching out a long way. Big lenses on SLRs will be here for a long while yet.Camera bodies are shrinking, particularly with mirrorless. But I think limits are being reached there due to the combination of sensor size* and having enough 'real estate' to make holding the camera comfortable - I just couldn't get on with my Dad's Olympus 4/3rds as it was too small. A modern mid-range mirrorless feels like a natural end-state, ergonomically.
* There is an inverse relationship between the size of the individual 'pixels' (sensors) on a camera sensor and the amount of 'noise' in the resulting image. It's gradually getting better, but everyone is still going for more Mp not less-noisy images, interestingly...and again I'd expect there to be some sort of reduction curve to the gains that can be achieved.
On top of which, and a fundamental economic for the manufacturers, there's a very established 'standard size' of sensor (APS or APS-C) that lenses are built towards. Anyone who bucks that in the name of aiming for smaller sensors and smaller cameras is effectively forcing their customers to start all over again with lenses...and that's a big investment and a big ask.
C4ME said:
Riley Blue said:
For me, discussing phone cameras is pointless. I'm looking for a compact camera to replace heavy kit that I can no longer handle. The OP is looking for a similar camera for holiday use. Nether of us have indicated an interest in phones, no matter how good their cameras.
Totally get this, hence why I have my Fujifilm compact as per my earlier post. It is a totally different experience.Edited by C4ME on Sunday 5th November 08:12
wyson said:
They recorded the latest Apple ‘spooky’ presentation using the iPhone 15 Max Plus Super Duper Ultra. I would never have known if it wasn’t for MKBHD on youtube highlighting a caption at the end. To all intents and purposes it looked like it was recorded using professional video equipment.
Was it an iPhone 15 Max Plus Super Duper Ultra supported by $50k of professionally installed lighting though? (even if it was, it's still impressive)
Riley Blue said:
I was talking to my sister yesterday in our weekly Zoom meeting and she has a Panasonic TZ camera (she's not sure of the model number) that she no longer uses since retiring from teaching and it's mine if I can use it.
I'd say give it a try. Out of all my cameras, my aged TZ is my favourite. It will have an automatic mode that you can start with, with only the choice of focal length to concern you. The power zoom is easy to use. Once you've got the hang of auto, you'll want to experiment, although you don't have to. Mine's 12mp with a good zoom. It will fit in a shirt pocket or you can have a case fitted to your belt. It's a great starter camera and, if it doesn't fire you towards better cameras, it's a great camera.
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