Newbie Lense Question

[GuildfordPaul]

grumpy bear said:

GuildfordPaul said:

does anyone have any experience of this lense, or any feedback as to whether they think it would be a good starter lense for some motorsport shots, i know you have to pay serious money for great high speed shots, but this really is top of my budget for a lense, especially as i'm a beginner.

http://www.jessops.com/online.store/categories/Acc...

Thanks again for all your help guys.

I'm not a Canon shooter so cant be specific about the above lens but I use the Nikon 70 - 300 VR and a Sigma 150-500 on a pair of D300's although they are not fast in aperature terms, the AF on both these lenses is very quick. At first glance the 80-400 F4 AF Nikkor covers both of these and would have been only a little more expensive than the Sigma, but is so slow as to be unusable. The camera will never adjust quick enough.

A lot of the problem with pictures of cars at speed is identifying why an image is'nt sharp. Camera shake is a factor and anything with the Canon equivalent of Vibration Reduction would get high on my list. The other is good old AF speed, if the lens can't catch up you will get a blurred image at any shutter speed. From experience of shooting with them most of the pro Nikon shooters use the 300mm f2.8 Af-S VR prime and the 70-200 f2.8 AF-S VR. The reason isnt the f2.8 although in certain circumtances it can help it is because they both have great glass, both have quick AF and both have VR.

Most of the motorsport shots I take are at lower shutter speeds. I pan at anything from 1/60 up to 1/180 and 3/4 shots will be 1/250 to 1/500 depending on the speed of the car and the corner or part of the track, IMHO anything shot over 1/750 sec looks too static, when we select shots to go forward to the car club magazine we use the term 'Parked' to weed these out and delete them. The only exception is to get to 1/1000 for 30 cars going into the first corner as you dont want to miss the choas but that is one shot per race. For my money the 70-200 L series at f4 with a 1.4 converter would give f5.6 as a starting point and on most days 400 ISO will get you to around the 750 shutter speed. So wide aperature is'nt the king here, as has been said autofocus speed is as is image sharpness. I would try to get one of these secondhand or even for a bit more the 100 - 400 L it seems a lot of money but add the old adage of buy cheap pay twice comes into play.


If you look at my site clickmotorsport you will see a progression in the shots as the season has progressed. TVR Challenge Cadwell was in April, Rockingham in May and Brands in June. All of the TVR shots are those that were NOT selected to go to the magazine so these are all slightly less crisp. The latest shots are from the HSCC Superprix at Brands. If you look at picture 11 of this set you will see what I mean. It was shot at 1/750 and the cars look a bit static, it is only in there because I loaded the wrong image to the site. If you compare that to the first image of that set. The progression is from practice, practice and more practice.

Edited by grumpy bear on Friday 17th July 12:45

Thanks mate for taking the time to write that for me, very useful stuff that I’ll certainly take on board.

Just had a look at second hand 70-200 L series at f4 and they are still way over what I was looking to pay, so I guess I’m still searching.

I think based on that info I need something with IS and good AF speed. The lens I was asking about has IS but I get the impression the AF speed isn't great.

I think the problem is what I’m hoping to find isn't really available in the price range I’m looking at, so I think I’m going to have to compromise somewhere.

The Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM does seem to have a lot of good reviews, but also some not so good ones.... this is harder to decide than I ever thought it would be!!

PS: some fantastic shots on your website.

[lowdrag]

Totally agree. The idea is to avoid "parking" the car and to give the impression of speed while still getting a crisp sharp photo. The problem with the "consumer" lenses is the inability to focus quickly enough, especially the Nikon 80/400 which I tried once - utterly useless for motor racing I found. Here are a couple of shots which give the idea, both taken with the 70/200 Nikkor. One has wheel blur, the other the background is blurred as I panned. Both I think were taken at 1/250th.





The more this thread progress I think the OP is getting the message that in the main consumer lenses cannot, with the best will in the world, give the really good results he is seeking and perhaps it would be better to save up for the 70/200L Canon. Dear yes, but a lens that won't give the required results is money wasted.

[GuildfordPaul]

lowdrag said:

Totally agree. The idea is to avoid "parking" the car and to give the impression of speed while still getting a crisp sharp photo. The problem with the "consumer" lenses is the inability to focus quickly enough, especially the Nikon 80/400 which I tried once - utterly useless for motor racing I found. Here are a couple of shots which give the idea, both taken with the 70/200 Nikkor. One has wheel blur, the other the background is blurred as I panned. Both I think were taken at 1/250th.





The more this thread progress I think the OP is getting the message that in the main consumer lenses cannot, with the best will in the world, give the really good results he is seeking and perhaps it would be better to save up for the 70/200L Canon. Dear yes, but a lens that won't give the required results is money wasted.

I think I’m sold, I’ve found a few second hand lenses on eBay in price range, all Canon
EF 70-200mm f4L USM.

2 questions relating to this lens:

1) Is 200mm generally enough zoom for some decent motorsport shots, bearing in mind that I’m outside the fences?

2) With 2nd hand lenses on eBay, should I be asking specific questions relating to condition, other than the usual 'is it in good nic'!!

Thanks guys again for all of your help, you have been incredible.

If i can get shots like those i'll be a happy man!

Edited by GuildfordPaul on Friday 17th July 13:46

[lowdrag]

No, you won't be able to get shots exactly like that because you will be much further away. The Alan McNish shot was taken from about 3 metres - I was on the inside wall at Mulsanne bend. However, you are looking at a 70/200 f4 lens now, a considerable step up from the original thoughts on the matter. Now if you add a 1.4X converter you then have a 98/280 f5.6 lens, considerably better than the original lens in my opinion. Not just mine either - read the review here:-

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-E...

Just check you can add a teleconverter though otherwise it won't be long enough. As regards Ebay, well, I've bought lenses from there with no problems but now the Hong Kong based suppl;iers no longer put "present" or "for trial use only" on the package and you are likely to get stung for customs and VAT. This one is already in the UK:-

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Canon-EF-70-200mm-f-4-L-USM-...

[GuildfordPaul]

lowdrag said:

No, you won't be able to get shots exactly like that because you will be much further away. The Alan McNish shot was taken from about 3 metres - I was on the inside wall at Mulsanne bend. However, you are looking at a 70/200 f4 lens now, a considerable step up from the original thoughts on the matter. Now if you add a 1.4X converter you then have a 98/280 f5.6 lens, considerably better than the original lens in my opinion. Not just mine either - read the review here:-

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-E...

Just check you can add a teleconverter though otherwise it won't be long enough. As regards Ebay, well, I've bought lenses from there with no problems but now the Hong Kong based suppl;iers no longer put "present" or "for trial use only" on the package and you are likely to get stung for customs and VAT. This one is already in the UK:-

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Canon-EF-70-200mm-f-4-L-USM-...

thanks lowdrag, all set then, i'm going for the 70-200mm lens, and when funds allow i'll get a teleconverter, i've found reviews that say it works perfectly with a 1.4x converter.

[grumpy bear]

In reply to your question of is 200mm enough, without a media pass to get inside the wire it depends on the circuit really. At Brands the inside of Druids 80mm is enough but there are prescious few other places on the Indy circuit. On the GP circuit trekking out the back to Westfield and dingle dell is below 200. Mallory Park there are a few good places within range as there are at Cadwell. Snetterton is OK as the best bits are close without catch fences but Rockingham is a waste of timje without a media pass. I'm told Castle Coombe is OK in a couple of places. Will find out early August.

[sidaorb]

200mm is plenty long enough to start with, I used a Siggy 70-200 F2.8 for about 4 years when I first started

[kybo]

sidaorb said:

I used a Siggy 70-200 F2.8 for about 4 years when I first started

Now there's a fine lens and more than likely cheaper than the Canon 70-200. Well worth considering, IMO. Being F2.8 you can put a 2x TC on it, too.

Scott

[lowdrag]

Good shout. If you add a 2X converter you lose two stops but are still at f5.6 with a 140/400mm lens in your hand. Personally though I found with my 70/200 Nikkor that the lens hunted a bit with a 2x and I lost a lot of shots but the 1.7X and 1.4X are perfect so I sold the 2X. Even so, with a 1.7X (loss of 1.5 stops) you still have a 105/340mm lens and a bit of judicious cropping should give some great photos. To sum up though, the 1.4X is my preferred converter since even with the 200/400 I am shooting at f5.6.

[GuildfordPaul]

Hi Guys,

Just a quick update and a thanks for all your help.

Over the weekend I purchased the 450d with the 18-55mm standard lens kit, and i've just won an auction on ebay for a second hand (although only 2 months old) Canon 70-200mm F/4.0 L USM lens, which i'll be trying out at the MotoGP this Sunday.

Will post a couple of the results.

Thanks again guys, your help was great!

Paul.

[kybo]

GuildfordPaul said:

Hi Guys,

Just a quick update and a thanks for all your help.

Over the weekend I purchased the 450d with the 18-55mm standard lens kit, and i've just won an auction on ebay for a second hand (although only 2 months old) Canon 70-200mm F/4.0 L USM lens, which i'll be trying out at the MotoGP this Sunday.

Will post a couple of the results.

Thanks again guys, your help was great!

Paul.

Superb, They should pair very well together. Now all you need is the Tele Converter for that little bit extra reach.

Look FW to seeing the shots.

Enjoy your weekend.

Scott

[horacethefrog]

You've certainly made the right decision. Of course the downside is, if the shots are rubbish, you won't be able to blame the lens

[GuildfordPaul]

Thanks Scott, and good point Horace, although if the shots are rubbish i can only assume it was damaged in the post

[sidaorb]

Good lens there, you'll soon get the bug big time and before long dreaming about a 300mm or 400mm F2.8