Dyno's in the Leeds area
Discussion
I'm planning on having my car dyno'd soon, as in a few weeks I'm wanting to get a remap ECU update and I'd like to see if the promised power and torque gains materialise from before/after runs.
Well Lane Turbo centre in Batley is a well established dyno centre who will charge £35+vat for a power run (actually several from what I can tell but one after the other).
I'm just curious if anyone else knows of any good places in the Leeds/Harrogate/York area, perhaps they know of a more accurate one, or a cheaper place, or somewhere they can recommend, as the only one I've ever really heard mentioned is Well Lane.
Thanks for any help or advice.
Cheers
Dave
Well Lane Turbo centre in Batley is a well established dyno centre who will charge £35+vat for a power run (actually several from what I can tell but one after the other).
I'm just curious if anyone else knows of any good places in the Leeds/Harrogate/York area, perhaps they know of a more accurate one, or a cheaper place, or somewhere they can recommend, as the only one I've ever really heard mentioned is Well Lane.
Thanks for any help or advice.
Cheers
Dave
Yeah, I've seen them mentioned before, but they look like they are a bike specialist. I'll give them a ring though just to be sure. I can't seem to make out from their website exactly what they can offer.
Never mind anyway, Well Lane turbo centre seems to be a well established and mentioned place so I guess they must be at least half good
Cheers
Dave
Never mind anyway, Well Lane turbo centre seems to be a well established and mentioned place so I guess they must be at least half good
Cheers
Dave
vixpy1 said:
Well lane = high figures..
How far is chesterfield from you?
How far is chesterfield from you?
Not far, I'm in SE Leeds, so Well Lane is about 20 mins away.
However, I can scoot onto the M1 and be down south of Sheffield in 50mins.
Not too fussed about high figures as I'm aiming for comparison numbers, and as long as at the wheel is accurate then I can make a decent comparison (pre and post alteration)...
I'm guessing there is a good place in Chesterfield
Dave
vixpy1 said:
Mr Whippy said:
Seems that Dyno Dynamics rollers are the ones to be looking for?
Shame there are no other decent dyno's in the Leeds area. So much scope for some decent stuff up in the Leeds area, plenty of markets to be taken over by a superior supplier.
Dave
Shame there are no other decent dyno's in the Leeds area. So much scope for some decent stuff up in the Leeds area, plenty of markets to be taken over by a superior supplier.
Dave
accept no substitute for Dyno Dynamics.. Also, give Conrad a call at www.theracingline.co.uk/welcome.php in Halifax.
Yeah, I saw your dyno was DD, and so was the Scooby place in Chesterfield, so guessed that DD were the ones to look for
Tried to find one local to me, and that one in Halifax (the racing line) looks like a spot on place. Not too much further than Well Lane Turbo centre... will give them a bell to see what their prices are.
Thanks
Dave
vixpy1 said:
Also, give Conrad a call at www.theracingline.co.uk/welcome.php in Halifax.
Tis a sound place!
Just got a very good deal on a small group of FWD cars (4 or 5) for power runs.
Cheers for the reccomendation
Dave
Do Holeshot do cars too then? I thought it was just bikes...
The place in Halifax was pretty steep for a single power run, but if I get a group of 4 or 5 they'll do it for about £40 each inc Vat which was the cheapest locally.
Really want to sod the group thing and get a power run this weekend though, sooner I get that sooner I can get a remap (90bhp is too sloooo, but don't tell the insurers
)
Dave
The place in Halifax was pretty steep for a single power run, but if I get a group of 4 or 5 they'll do it for about £40 each inc Vat which was the cheapest locally.
Really want to sod the group thing and get a power run this weekend though, sooner I get that sooner I can get a remap (90bhp is too sloooo, but don't tell the insurers
) Dave
Going this Saturday
Done a pretty good deal on 4 cars considering their normal single car rate...
The bloke (not sure on the name but he runs the dyno I guess) was offering diagnostic power runs, where they run @ 500rpm intervals to max power, as well as a power run, and monitor a/f ratio and things at varying throttle openings.
All I'm after really is a power run, but I guess knowing how much fuelling I have as standard and when I go back after a remap (he also said he could remap it there!?) then I can see where the fuelling has been increased to offer more power etc.
All quite interesting. Just wondering if the diagnostic run is quite a common thing for people to have done, and how long it takes vs a straight power run at full throttle?
Thanks again for the recommendation Vixpy, seems like one of the best around after talking to them!
Dave
Done a pretty good deal on 4 cars considering their normal single car rate...
The bloke (not sure on the name but he runs the dyno I guess) was offering diagnostic power runs, where they run @ 500rpm intervals to max power, as well as a power run, and monitor a/f ratio and things at varying throttle openings.
All I'm after really is a power run, but I guess knowing how much fuelling I have as standard and when I go back after a remap (he also said he could remap it there!?) then I can see where the fuelling has been increased to offer more power etc.
All quite interesting. Just wondering if the diagnostic run is quite a common thing for people to have done, and how long it takes vs a straight power run at full throttle?
Thanks again for the recommendation Vixpy, seems like one of the best around after talking to them!
Dave
Well, was a good morning out.
Just curious though, because the Dyno Dynamics doesn't use coast down, it estimates losses.
My 306 Hdi hit 93bhp and book torque pretty much spot on. A perfect standard engine really.
My brothers Tdi which IS quicker got 92.5bhp and a bit less torque. Power fair enough, but the torque he gets is noticeably higher wrt to wheel spin etc.
Just curious that we all did runs in 3rd, and the Tdi engine is only getting into it's stride at 3000rpm, so is there a chance that as the boost kicked in the car ran off over 4000rpm and past peak power before the turbo actually got upto speed and the mechanical fuel pump compensator upped the fuelling?
I know coastdown is irrelevant here due to the method used, but is 3rd gear in a derv just too low to let the turbo spool up, with 60mph being @ 4000rpm in the said car?!?!
Felt happy with mine but it does have a smaller turbo and slightly longer gearing (afaik)... I imgaine if you did the run in 1st a turbo wouldn't even hit peak boost it'd be over the rev limit so quickly!?
Anyway, got 3 bhp over stock and about 15 lbft over stock
Better ring the insurers and tell them
Just look at the mental power output. 93bhp at 3200rpm, with 90bhp from 3000rpm>4200rpm!
No wonder you never feel the need to rev it! Hopefully some OBD port sparking will make it a bit better.
Dave
Just curious though, because the Dyno Dynamics doesn't use coast down, it estimates losses.
My 306 Hdi hit 93bhp and book torque pretty much spot on. A perfect standard engine really.
My brothers Tdi which IS quicker got 92.5bhp and a bit less torque. Power fair enough, but the torque he gets is noticeably higher wrt to wheel spin etc.
Just curious that we all did runs in 3rd, and the Tdi engine is only getting into it's stride at 3000rpm, so is there a chance that as the boost kicked in the car ran off over 4000rpm and past peak power before the turbo actually got upto speed and the mechanical fuel pump compensator upped the fuelling?
I know coastdown is irrelevant here due to the method used, but is 3rd gear in a derv just too low to let the turbo spool up, with 60mph being @ 4000rpm in the said car?!?!
Felt happy with mine but it does have a smaller turbo and slightly longer gearing (afaik)... I imgaine if you did the run in 1st a turbo wouldn't even hit peak boost it'd be over the rev limit so quickly!?
Anyway, got 3 bhp over stock and about 15 lbft over stock
Better ring the insurers and tell them
Just look at the mental power output. 93bhp at 3200rpm, with 90bhp from 3000rpm>4200rpm!
No wonder you never feel the need to rev it! Hopefully some OBD port sparking will make it a bit better.
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Monday 17th July 15:53
Yes, I found an article on an Aussie site where they talk about this very problem, and the eddy current variable load rollers allow you to hold WOT at any rpm to let turbo's boost up before "letting the engine go" as it were.
Not sure if thats what they did now, but I guess they will have done.
Just curious, how long would you let one run for? Ie, do you relieve the rollers just enough so the engine pulls as if it's going up a hill just steep enough to allow acceleration, or is it fixed, so as a sudden torque boost rushes in the rollers speed up much quicker.
A diesel for example doesn't put up much of a fight at 1600rpm so the rate of rpm increase is low, but it suddenly spikes and so the rpm may "get ahead" of the turbo even at that load in such a low gear??
Is it worth me asking next time to have the engine labouring really hard, so it takes maybe 20 seconds to pass over the rpm range?
At least if thats possible then I can put my mind at rest about the turbo spool state and be satisfied the dyno represents WOT steady state full boost over the entire rpm range
Seem like a good dyno though, consistent and effective and I'm sure in respect to pure inertia dyno's they are way ahead!
Need to go back soon and ask lots more questions. Going to see if I can do a few varying tests with different intakes to asses the benefits!
AFR was also very telling, a very handy piece of information for a derv pre-tune since they run lean as standard and the more you tune them obviously the AFR slack is taken up!
Cheers for the help anyway Vixpy, think I couldn't have ended up at a better place for finding out/testing what I wanted to test
Dave
Not sure if thats what they did now, but I guess they will have done.
Just curious, how long would you let one run for? Ie, do you relieve the rollers just enough so the engine pulls as if it's going up a hill just steep enough to allow acceleration, or is it fixed, so as a sudden torque boost rushes in the rollers speed up much quicker.
A diesel for example doesn't put up much of a fight at 1600rpm so the rate of rpm increase is low, but it suddenly spikes and so the rpm may "get ahead" of the turbo even at that load in such a low gear??
Is it worth me asking next time to have the engine labouring really hard, so it takes maybe 20 seconds to pass over the rpm range?
At least if thats possible then I can put my mind at rest about the turbo spool state and be satisfied the dyno represents WOT steady state full boost over the entire rpm range
Seem like a good dyno though, consistent and effective and I'm sure in respect to pure inertia dyno's they are way ahead!
Need to go back soon and ask lots more questions. Going to see if I can do a few varying tests with different intakes to asses the benefits!
AFR was also very telling, a very handy piece of information for a derv pre-tune since they run lean as standard and the more you tune them obviously the AFR slack is taken up!
Cheers for the help anyway Vixpy, think I couldn't have ended up at a better place for finding out/testing what I wanted to test
Dave
Ah right, that sounds about right.
Kinda like how the diagnostic runs hold the revs, rather than the operator holding them per se, the rollers alter their resistance to match the torque output at any given rpm, hence holding the engine at WOT with no rpm increase.
So I guess in shootout the rollers automatically sense the torque of the engine across the rev range (effectively matching my dyno's "tractive lb" output) and match it equally, only allowing just enough resistance to let the revs proceed at a steady rate so a test of the rev range can be conducted
Makes alot more sense now. No matter what the engine the rollers just match the input from the wheels minus a bit. I guess that makes them more accurate as consistency is almost guaranteed and no car has an advantage for any reason...
Is there anything else these rollers can test for? A few people who went along with me had a diagnostic run done where you get low/med/wot measurements taken at 500rpm intervals, sounds even more interesting now I understand how the dyno works!
Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions Vixpy. The operator on the day was happy to answer my questions but also really busy
Dave
Kinda like how the diagnostic runs hold the revs, rather than the operator holding them per se, the rollers alter their resistance to match the torque output at any given rpm, hence holding the engine at WOT with no rpm increase.
So I guess in shootout the rollers automatically sense the torque of the engine across the rev range (effectively matching my dyno's "tractive lb" output) and match it equally, only allowing just enough resistance to let the revs proceed at a steady rate so a test of the rev range can be conducted
Makes alot more sense now. No matter what the engine the rollers just match the input from the wheels minus a bit. I guess that makes them more accurate as consistency is almost guaranteed and no car has an advantage for any reason...
Is there anything else these rollers can test for? A few people who went along with me had a diagnostic run done where you get low/med/wot measurements taken at 500rpm intervals, sounds even more interesting now I understand how the dyno works!
Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions Vixpy. The operator on the day was happy to answer my questions but also really busy
Dave
I'm not sure, I think it's about £50 +vat normally for a diagnostic power run.
We went and got a 4 cars (two power runs, two diag power runs, but could have had four diag power runs) for £180 PLUS vat wink wink...
I'll be going again in a few weeks hopefully so will let you know if you want. The more we get I guess the better deal we can get. Will be early though, I think the owner likes having guaranteed customers at 9am on a Saturday hence the good deal
Dave
We went and got a 4 cars (two power runs, two diag power runs, but could have had four diag power runs) for £180 PLUS vat wink wink...
I'll be going again in a few weeks hopefully so will let you know if you want. The more we get I guess the better deal we can get. Will be early though, I think the owner likes having guaranteed customers at 9am on a Saturday hence the good deal
Dave
vixpy1 said:
i would have done them the same way (3rd etc) the runs last long enough for the turbo to spool
Also, just wondering, why use 3rd gear?
Does the Dyno Dynamics software calc transmission losses effectively somehow?
Also, can the at wheels figure appear lower in different gears due to higher transmission losses in certain ratio's (ie, further away from 1:1)...?
Dave
Ah good stuff...
Just a friend managed get 6bhp under on his 167bhp (stock) car...
Rekons it was because it was run in 3rd though it was a 6spd so maybe 4th would have been better.
Still, the operator noticed his top-end breathing was lacking (1.5 inHg over 5500rpm) and loosing him power.
He'd modded his intake with a trumpet with mesh grille over and I rekon that cost him alot of power, because the stock trumpet intake on a 306 is already hugely good, and I think he just totally ruined it
Will be going back in a few weeks anyway, so I guess we'll see then
Hope more of these DD rollers get used/bought, seem really good and consistent, just fairly few and far between up here in the North...
Dave
Just a friend managed get 6bhp under on his 167bhp (stock) car...
Rekons it was because it was run in 3rd though it was a 6spd so maybe 4th would have been better.
Still, the operator noticed his top-end breathing was lacking (1.5 inHg over 5500rpm) and loosing him power.
He'd modded his intake with a trumpet with mesh grille over and I rekon that cost him alot of power, because the stock trumpet intake on a 306 is already hugely good, and I think he just totally ruined it
Will be going back in a few weeks anyway, so I guess we'll see then
Hope more of these DD rollers get used/bought, seem really good and consistent, just fairly few and far between up here in the North...
Dave
vixpy1 said:
Mr Whippy said:
Ah good stuff...
Just a friend managed get 6bhp under on his 167bhp (stock) car...
Rekons it was because it was run in 3rd though it was a 6spd so maybe 4th would have been better.
Dave
Just a friend managed get 6bhp under on his 167bhp (stock) car...
Rekons it was because it was run in 3rd though it was a 6spd so maybe 4th would have been better.
Dave
Was it a Gti-6 ? Because they rarely make the power, I've had them down at 150 sometimes..
Yes it was, with a HUGE Magnex exhaust and a modified intake.
To be honest mine was lovely and nippy and felt 167bhp (if you can say that) when you really gave it some beans, but it was totally standard. (unfortunately never dyno'd it as I intended to leave it stock anyway... only reason I dyno'd my current car is so I have a start point for alterations).
I personally think touching any part of the system ruins the perfect setup in most modern day road cars. OK I bet you could loose refinement and low volume levels for a bit more, but at huge R&D cost and maybe only gain 2% say.
Ie, the stock compromise is about as good as you'll get, any better and it'll have to be serious motorsport development stuff.
Usually though these cars get good wheel power, but have silly drivetrain losses, some say 18% (though my Hdi 306 got ~ 22% apparently) but still made pretty much stock power (just a bit over)...
Who knows... main use to me for a dyno is for before and after and as a rough guide, not an absolute measure. His tyres or old gearbox oil or who knows what may have dropped his @ wheel figure by 4%, leaving the crank power down. Who knows, but exactly why consistency and testing is what dyno's are about imho... change tyres, re-run, see effects, remap ecu, leave all rest same, re-run etc etc
Thanks again Vixpy, he's taking it back when I go back. He ran stock wheels but with 50psi (seems to think that is better for wheel figures), and now wants to run in 4th or 5th. Problem is if he alters the intake now he won't know if it was the problem or not, so ultimately he needs to run 50psi again which just has no relevance to real life either... doh...
No winning with some people, just after the biggest numbers
Dave
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