If TVR went bust
Discussion
Gaffer
Quite. They have bought the car not the company. Strikes me that while TVR have been winging it in comaprison with their competition in the approach they take to the business, the results speak for themselves, the Tamora is universally loved by the press as have all the new models under PW's ownership. Things must be heading in the right direction because the tamora owners also seem to love the cars which i don't remember being the case with early tuscans.
TVR is NOT porsche or Ferrari, although it is rahter like an eccentric english version of the early ferrari. There is no comparison to be made other than thay they make cars. A TVR is a track racer for the road in any guise. The relationship with the racing team ought to make that perfectly clear.
I do take exception to the bullshit that emerges from the factoy regarding reliability issues, they could get away with that if they had the resources and approach to fixing things that Porsche and BMW have, but they cannot match that kind of recall policy and so should refrain from setting customer expectations there.
They do have enormous brand loyalty and should try to draw on that to solve the problems. If I was told that there was a problem that it would be fixed under warranty and that yes sir it has happened to alot of them, I'd mind less than being one of the poor souls who loses their pride and joy for months with out much in the way of explanation.
Use the customer connection TVR, it is the biggest asset you have and is unmatched by any competitor....
Oh and if you go bust I'd guess Daimler Chrysler will snap you up through Mclaren.
>> Edited by dans on Thursday 2nd May 10:07
Quite. They have bought the car not the company. Strikes me that while TVR have been winging it in comaprison with their competition in the approach they take to the business, the results speak for themselves, the Tamora is universally loved by the press as have all the new models under PW's ownership. Things must be heading in the right direction because the tamora owners also seem to love the cars which i don't remember being the case with early tuscans.
TVR is NOT porsche or Ferrari, although it is rahter like an eccentric english version of the early ferrari. There is no comparison to be made other than thay they make cars. A TVR is a track racer for the road in any guise. The relationship with the racing team ought to make that perfectly clear.
I do take exception to the bullshit that emerges from the factoy regarding reliability issues, they could get away with that if they had the resources and approach to fixing things that Porsche and BMW have, but they cannot match that kind of recall policy and so should refrain from setting customer expectations there.
They do have enormous brand loyalty and should try to draw on that to solve the problems. If I was told that there was a problem that it would be fixed under warranty and that yes sir it has happened to alot of them, I'd mind less than being one of the poor souls who loses their pride and joy for months with out much in the way of explanation.
Use the customer connection TVR, it is the biggest asset you have and is unmatched by any competitor....
Oh and if you go bust I'd guess Daimler Chrysler will snap you up through Mclaren.
>> Edited by dans on Thursday 2nd May 10:07
The Tamora is absolutely fine gaffer, (now I've secured the gear lever with a bolt that was missing, but we'll let that one go...) I, too, am not made of money, and I do not want my hard-earned going down the pan due to unreliability. If we want good residuals, may I humbly suggest that we start talking TVR UP instead of down? As with any message, if enough people say, "it is good" then it WILL be good. Say it's bad, and it will be bad. Choose your option now....
Spot on Nubbin,
It strikes me as slightly ironic that people complain about their residuals by saying that TVR are sh!te etc etc which further drives down residuals.
Remember that usually a lot more people read a forum than contribute to it and whilst I appreciate that there are people on here every day that say basically declare their love for their car there are also a lot of 'damned depreciation' type threads. All it takes is for a number of people to read these and further perpetuate this.
I bought one new because I had to, I desperately wanted a TVR and my company insisted that I buy a new car with my car allowance. Depreciation hasnt come into my mind, not because I have more money than sense but because the car excites and astonishes me so damned much that I really dont care what it will be worth. As long as 36 months down the line its worth more than the balloon (which it should be, its a conservative estimate) then I reckon I am having much more value than the combined cost of the payment, depreciation and running costs.
TVR - Automotive Prozac
Matt.
It strikes me as slightly ironic that people complain about their residuals by saying that TVR are sh!te etc etc which further drives down residuals.
Remember that usually a lot more people read a forum than contribute to it and whilst I appreciate that there are people on here every day that say basically declare their love for their car there are also a lot of 'damned depreciation' type threads. All it takes is for a number of people to read these and further perpetuate this.
I bought one new because I had to, I desperately wanted a TVR and my company insisted that I buy a new car with my car allowance. Depreciation hasnt come into my mind, not because I have more money than sense but because the car excites and astonishes me so damned much that I really dont care what it will be worth. As long as 36 months down the line its worth more than the balloon (which it should be, its a conservative estimate) then I reckon I am having much more value than the combined cost of the payment, depreciation and running costs.
TVR - Automotive Prozac
Matt.
quote:
Mel,
How did you get on in the tax paper? CT is paid on taxable profit, not money in the bank....
Sorry, sorry, sorry...
Yep fair one sorry about that, can we actually clarify what the £1500 was though I seem to remember from an earlier thread that it was about this figure as pre tax profits.
Also in mitigation for myself I must point out that I am firstly an engineer and hate all things accounts, infact I'm that much of a biffer I still struggle to remember which ones which between net and gross.
quote:
The Tamora is absolutely fine gaffer, (now I've secured the gear lever with a bolt that was missing, but we'll let that one go...) I, too, am not made of money, and I do not want my hard-earned going down the pan due to unreliability. If we want good residuals, may I humbly suggest that we start talking TVR UP instead of down? As with any message, if enough people say, "it is good" then it WILL be good. Say it's bad, and it will be bad. Choose your option now....
Up to a point Lord Copper. While potential buyers may look here, it's the hard numbers and facts that they will decide on. That and the HUGELY emotional appeal of these cars (and it's the tension between that emotion and the rational being within us that's fuelling this debate).
If the numbers don't add up then people will find the emotional appeal of TVRs lessened. If every mile costs you £2 in depreciation your joy is lessened ultimately (though not at the time!).
So I agree that the TVR engine was a mistake. Like a previous commentator, I wouldn't care if it was a BMW engine breathed on by TVR, as long as it was unburstable (like my Chimaera's V8 is proving to be - touch GRP
). The trouble is that PW makes business decisions with his emotions (and to a large extent all credit to him) but this was a bad call IMHO. If an engine goes like stink, makes a great noise and doesn't break, ultimately, who cares where it came from?
quote:
i agree with Mike E, the most sensible TVR purchase is a 13-18k Griffith or Chimera. Low risk (as the V8 could be rebuilt anywhere), well developed and relatively trouble free. I think a 15k Griff could go up in the next 5 years, i guess thats appreciation rather than depreciation.
I brought an alternative this time round as I knew full well a 50k Cerb would only be worth 25k in 2 years time, even for a multi millionaire such as oneself that was a bit rich! It is the most exciting thing on 4 wheels though and anybody with the nuts to go for one, full marks and thumbs up - its only money after all.
Bennno
Manek, I agree fully. I'm not trying to talk them down, I'm just expressing my concern for the huge gamble PW has made with his new era model line up. From what I know of your situation your Chimp seems a good example of the benefits of the 1990s TVR era - cheap to buy, reliable, fairly unburstable mechanics and cheap to run - and through the performance and noise factor in and we can all see why the Chimp was such a winner.
If we could rewind time I wish I'd bought my first TVR in 92 (a new 4.5BV Griff would have been nice) instead of waiting until 94 to buy 2nd hand - can't say I feel the same confidence 10 years on.....
Mike.
If we could rewind time I wish I'd bought my first TVR in 92 (a new 4.5BV Griff would have been nice) instead of waiting until 94 to buy 2nd hand - can't say I feel the same confidence 10 years on.....
Mike.
“Not everyone wants to lose northern house money”. You really are condescending aren’t you Ben. Why not go the whole-hog and tell us that you could have bought an entire street “Up-North” for what you just splashed out on your Ferrari? And… in your own words “read my post again”, I did not say “nobody even cares about depreciation” I said that I didn’t care about it when I bought my Griffith. So next time you accuse someone of being a loon who’s talking bollocks, you do a bit of reading for a change, before you go off on one of your opinionated rants.
Oh and to get back on subject, I did say I had no evidence, fortunately Flasher did and agreed with me, his examples showing that there are two sides to every argument, not just “The Gospel According to Benno” which you would have us all believe is always correct.
The point I was making Ben is that most sports car purchases are additional cars and therefore by definition made by people with some disposable income, so depreciation is less of a concern. Also, most people intend to keep their purchase for longer than 12 months. I understand the fleet-industry say most depreciation hits a car in the first year so only an absolute idiot would buy a sports car and flog it after a year. Unless it was a “wrong purchase” which shows a lack of judgement or perhaps they “out-grew” it and wanted something better/more expensive in which case I stand by my comment that deprecation is no real issue to them.
Interestingly the strongest opinions about TVR on this board come from those people who have either never even owned one - let alone driven one, or have done but have moved on/up in the world. As Flasher and Nubbin (not to mention EVO and Autocar, and the rest of the entire motoring world) have said the Tamora really is a cracker and deserves to become the next big success for PW and his team. However I really begin to wonder if there is a group of people out there just willing the Tamora to fail, so they can say “told you so”… now you’d get no pleasure out of that, would you Ben?
Rich…
p.s. It’s lose not loose
p.p.s. Mike I don't want a Lambo - the roof doesn't come off and it's ugly
Oh and to get back on subject, I did say I had no evidence, fortunately Flasher did and agreed with me, his examples showing that there are two sides to every argument, not just “The Gospel According to Benno” which you would have us all believe is always correct.
The point I was making Ben is that most sports car purchases are additional cars and therefore by definition made by people with some disposable income, so depreciation is less of a concern. Also, most people intend to keep their purchase for longer than 12 months. I understand the fleet-industry say most depreciation hits a car in the first year so only an absolute idiot would buy a sports car and flog it after a year. Unless it was a “wrong purchase” which shows a lack of judgement or perhaps they “out-grew” it and wanted something better/more expensive in which case I stand by my comment that deprecation is no real issue to them.
Interestingly the strongest opinions about TVR on this board come from those people who have either never even owned one - let alone driven one, or have done but have moved on/up in the world. As Flasher and Nubbin (not to mention EVO and Autocar, and the rest of the entire motoring world) have said the Tamora really is a cracker and deserves to become the next big success for PW and his team. However I really begin to wonder if there is a group of people out there just willing the Tamora to fail, so they can say “told you so”… now you’d get no pleasure out of that, would you Ben?
Rich…
p.s. It’s lose not loose
p.p.s. Mike I don't want a Lambo - the roof doesn't come off and it's ugly
quote:
quote:Err, Peter Wheeler?
If an engine goes like stink, makes a great noise and doesn't break, ultimately, who cares where it came from?
And me. One of the things I pride myself on is that it is a handbuilt British sportscar (albiet many ford parts borrowed) but if I wanted a BMW engined car I would buy a BMW. I don't.
rich b
I like the Tamora, already said to Flash if i could get away with 2 seats it would be tempting.
I was making a point, in the house analogy, not to annoy those up north, but to put the losses in context and make a point - in the face of your 'i bought it as a toy and dont give 2 stuffs if i loose a shed load of money'
I think a lot of us are guilty down south of not realising the value of money, for somebody to loose more in 2 years on a car (its only 20-25k) when there are deprived areas in the country where this could be somebody a house for life is pretty sad.
Bennno
I like the Tamora, already said to Flash if i could get away with 2 seats it would be tempting.
I was making a point, in the house analogy, not to annoy those up north, but to put the losses in context and make a point - in the face of your 'i bought it as a toy and dont give 2 stuffs if i loose a shed load of money'
I think a lot of us are guilty down south of not realising the value of money, for somebody to loose more in 2 years on a car (its only 20-25k) when there are deprived areas in the country where this could be somebody a house for life is pretty sad.
Bennno
quote:
Sometimes its down to the components and thats just the luck of the draw.
Sorry Gaffer but I think this is the wrong attitude, there shouldn't be any 'luck of the draw' involved. You agree the specifications of a component with the supplier and check each batch of deliveries to ensure they meet the requirement - if they don't, send 'em back. If it keeps happening, get a new supplier.
Just remember, if the car's off the road because something's broken, most people wouldn't care less whether it was caused by a component made by TVR or someone else, the car's still off the road !!!
beljames's analysis looks spot on to me. No public company would pull stunts like building engines from scratch and punting your brand loyalty in order to do so. It's a very big gamble and the dice are still in the air. It may prove an absolute disaster, it may be a brilliant shortcut to a bigger league time. From where I'm sitting, it looks like they are getting away with it. Blokes like PW have the freedom to take these big risks and you have to accept that if you buy their products or work for them, then you are getting on their own private rollercoaster and that they are not bound to follow normal commercial logic.
On the depreciation front, I applaud anyone who buys new cars and sells them two years later. I am in your eternal debt. You are also all mad as fish. Whatever the marque, with the rarest of exceptions you are shovelling money down the lav. Sports and luxury car prices tend to fall off a cliff at the point where you can no longer pretend they are new, but then hold their value quite well, shunting down from time to time when new models are released. You may think PW is bonkers, but at least his strategy has a potential up side.
On the depreciation front, I applaud anyone who buys new cars and sells them two years later. I am in your eternal debt. You are also all mad as fish. Whatever the marque, with the rarest of exceptions you are shovelling money down the lav. Sports and luxury car prices tend to fall off a cliff at the point where you can no longer pretend they are new, but then hold their value quite well, shunting down from time to time when new models are released. You may think PW is bonkers, but at least his strategy has a potential up side.
quote:
The point I was making Ben is that most sports car purchases are additional cars and therefore by definition made by people with some disposable income, so depreciation is less of a concern. Also, most people intend to keep their purchase for longer than 12 months. I understand the fleet-industry say most depreciation hits a car in the first year so only an absolute idiot would buy a sports car and flog it after a year.
So who's being a condescending as
le now then RichB? I sold the car 'cos I lost complete faith in it, not because I'm an absolute idiot,
I sold/exchanged the first Tuscan 'cos it was the biggest pile of sh
t you could imagine. It's subsequently had two engine rebuilds, two new clutches and 6 new wheels - and that's just the big problems. I take it you haven't owned a new era TVR so why the hell are you telling me that they're faultless and it's inconceivable that anyone wouldn't want to keep one for the next 10 years (therefore negating any early years depreciation) - has it not occurred to you why there are so many 2nd hand Tuscans on the market, it's because a number of longstanding TVR owners became so pissed off they've walked away from the marque (some in less than 12 months ownership). And the reason I know this? Because I jointly started the tuscan egroup in June 2000, so I've seen this happen numerous times over the last 23 months.
I must say I'm getting sick of this attitude where guys like you automatically label people like Ben and myself as wingers because we're not prepared to accept all the negative aspects of Tuscan or Cerbera ownership.
As I said before I'd happily buy another Griff again, I'm not anti TVR I'm just anti TVR engine strategy.
Rant Over
Mike.
>> Edited by MikeE on Thursday 2nd May 12:26
quote:
I sold the car 'cos I lost complete faith in it, not because I'm a complete idiot,
I sold/exchanged the first Tuscan 'cos it was the biggest pile of of sh
This is one of the reasons why I have had a Tuscan on deposit since the 1998 motor show, or was it 97? The fact is that a friend had bought an early Cerbera in 96 and had quite a few problems with it, we both slapped depopsit on Tuscans on the same day with a view to taking one once any reliability issues had been identified and sorted out. It is not just the financial side of it that bothers me, I have to go and see customers etc, etc so I need to be sure that anything I have is going to be pretty reliable. The stories I have read about the s6 engine have put me off, I can live with the odd bit of trim dropping off (I used to drive Fiats :-) but the amount of engine faliures, engine work that can only be carried out at the factory, long waits and bad communication put me off. I know there are people with good Tuscan ownership experience and I really hope corner has been turned because I really, really want TVR to be the best. Keep piling the miles on Nubbin and Flasher a lot of people are interested in your experiences.
As a gesture of goodwill to all present and future TVR owners - I am prepared to offer my services to assist in the hotly debated issue of TVR engine strategy.
If all PH readers club together and sponsor me to drive a Tamora or Tuscan for the next six months I can promise and guarantee to thrash the bollocks off the thing over at least 20K miles and record my experiences for you...
(Well - it was worth a try.....)
If all PH readers club together and sponsor me to drive a Tamora or Tuscan for the next six months I can promise and guarantee to thrash the bollocks off the thing over at least 20K miles and record my experiences for you...
(Well - it was worth a try.....)
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