New TVR still under wraps! (Vol. 2)

[bullittmcqueen]

Tyre Smoke said:

I agree. I didn't mean to infer any sort of dishonesty. Just dreadful PR.

Anyway, if I were in the market for a new TVR..

http://www.grexautomotive.com/the-kit

No way ever in hell will this thing be road legal. It has also been discussed a few years ago already. If anyone complains about TVR, fine, but this thing is completely off.

Edited by bullittmcqueen on Monday 23 December 13:27

[Tyre Smoke]

Is it? How do you know?

[anonymous-user]

bullittmcqueen said:

Tyre Smoke said:

I agree. I didn't mean to infer any sort of dishonesty. Just dreadful PR.

Anyway, if I were in the market for a new TVR..

http://www.grexautomotive.com/the-kit

This, my friends, actually IS a con !

That’s the ‘company’ from abroad isn’t it? Jersey?

[Tyre Smoke]

Spain/Tenerife it seems.

So why is it a con? Looks like a lot of hassle to build that website for a con.

[bullittmcqueen]

Tyre Smoke said:

Is it? How do you know?

I edited my comment. But it looks beyond shady.

[anonymous-user]

bullittmcqueen said:

I edited my comment. But it looks beyond shady.

It was talked about on here before - can’t remember when - and it’s some con artists. I don’t think there’s a location or contact number in the website either.

[Tyre Smoke]

Have to admit if something looks too good to be true it probably is.

[anonymous-user]

....and that blue Sag is someone’s here on PH as I recall !

[Tyre Smoke]

Okay, so it looks as bent as a hair grip. But surely if Newco did something like this to get off the ground it would have made more sense? The Sag is still an up to date design. Doesn't look 15 years old.

Suppose there would be all sorts of SVA issues though.

[anonymous-user]

They could have used as a template to market the Griff and it would have gone down a storm.

[bullittmcqueen]

Tyre Smoke said:

Okay, so it looks as bent as a hair grip. But surely if Newco did something like this to get off the ground it would have made more sense? The Sag is still an up to date design. Doesn't look 15 years old.

Suppose there would be all sorts of SVA issues though.

Way too extreme. And the main problem these days is not the design, but regulation, emissions, type-approval and a quickly moving political playing field etc. So the engineering effort would haven been the same essentially, starting at exactly zero. They'd be in exactly the same spot, they are now in.

[crosseyedlion]

bullittmcqueen said:

Tyre Smoke said:

Okay, so it looks as bent as a hair grip. But surely if Newco did something like this to get off the ground it would have made more sense? The Sag is still an up to date design. Doesn't look 15 years old.

Suppose there would be all sorts of SVA issues though.

Way too extreme. And the main problem these days is not the design, but regulation, emissions, type-approval and a quickly moving political playing field etc. So the engineering effort would haven been the same essentially, starting at exactly zero. They'd be in exactly the same spot, they are now in.

I'm not sure why everyone assumes emissions/homologation is such a problem. Under 1000 cars per year in the UK & EU removes the necessity for any crash testing, emissions beyond a basic level, abs/traction/stability/airbags etc... (its 1000 per model for all but emissions, 1000 per manufacturer is the cut off for emissions...Its essentially IVA test standards, but can be self certified with the correct processes/QC in place.

Edited by crosseyedlion on Monday 23 December 15:21

Edited by crosseyedlion on Monday 23 December 15:34

[Jon39]

Failure to successfully begin a new car manufacturing business, is normally due to lack of money.

I dont know, but if premises delay has been given as the reason for the holdup of this project, I would be skeptical.
Aston Martin build their very high value special project cars, in a general purpose industrial unit at Wellesbourne. We see new units of that type available to rent, being built now at many locations.

With sufficient funding, other problems can of course be overcome, by buying in the appropriate expertise.

Probably the only sports car 'low-tech' manufacturer left now is Morgan. They are a profitable car maker. Relating to the regulations limit just mentioned by crosseyedlion, Morgan's output might be under 1,000 pa.

I have just watched an interesting YouTube video about the Alpine factory. Presumably fairly low production numbers there, but the production equipment must have cost mega money.

Did the resurrected TVR directors, intend to follow the Morgan production method example ? Surely they could never have expected, to find any investors, willing to finance Alpine type production facilities.

[bullittmcqueen]

crosseyedlion said:

I'm not sure why everyone assumes emissions/homologation is such a problem. Under 1000 cars per year in the UK & EU removes the necessity for any crash testing, emissions beyond a basic level, abs/traction/stability/airbags etc... (its 1000 per model for all but emissions, 1000 per manufacturer is the cut off for emissions...Its essentially IVA test standards, but can be self certified with the correct processes/QC in place.

Edited by crosseyedlion on Monday 23 December 15:21

Edited by crosseyedlion on Monday 23 December 15:34

That's right. Still, lots of ever-changing regulation remains in place to be met. Yes, there are lots of provisions to prevent hardships for such (ultra) small volume manufacturers (crash, emissions, derogations), still it's gotten a lot more complex over the years. Even a USVM couldn't get a Sagaris type-approved without from-scratch engineering these days. IF it was possible these days, we'd see lot more cars (and manufacturers) of the kind.

[crosseyedlion]

bullittmcqueen said:

That's right. Still, lots of ever-changing regulation remains in place to be met. Yes, there are lots of provisions to prevent hardships for such (ultra) small volume manufacturers (crash, emissions, derogations), still it's gotten a lot more complex over the years. Even a USVM couldn't get a Sagaris type-approved without from-scratch engineering these days. IF it was possible these days, we'd see lot more cars (and manufacturers) of the kind.

TVRs built from parts in recent history have been iva'd with little to no issues. There is nothing to suggest it would be an issue to produce up to the 1000 a year limit as mentioned.

Emissions targets are ever tightening all the time. But only for volume manufacturers. This may actually provide an opportunity for small volume manufacturers.

I strongly suspect the reason there isn't more vehicles of tvrs kind now is the crossover of those with road car (not just race car) engineering and experience, genuinely hands on ability, business acumen and inclination to hop off the well paid, secure oem gravy train is very nearly nil in my experience. That coupled with the fact that very few realize the rules are vastly different for small volume manufacturers.

Then you get wealthy businessmen starting up, chucking money at it, being far too ambitious and corporate about the whole thing and wondering why it doesn't work out. That puts people off too.

[Gazzab]

The billy big balls business model with lots of shareholders, lots of glitz, grand ambitions, expensive set up and operating costs, huge funding needs, big names, world wide plans, network plans etc is too ambitious for a basic sports car start up. When coupled with a complete lack of experience or engineering skills then it’s clearly the wrong path.
It’s probably too late to switch to an do-able plan and approach.
I am sure it is doable to start in a shed with something in between the old skool and newco TVR.

[PowersPerformance]

Gazzab said:

The billy big balls business model with lots of shareholders, lots of glitz, grand ambitions, expensive set up and operating costs, huge funding needs, big names, world wide plans, network plans etc is too ambitious for a basic sports car start up. When coupled with a complete lack of experience or engineering skills then it’s clearly the wrong path.
It’s probably too late to switch to an do-able plan and approach.
I am sure it is doable to start in a shed with something in between the old skool and newco TVR.

you'd need big balls to take this on...

Dom

Edited by PowersPerformance on Monday 23 December 18:22

[Gazzab]

PowersPerformance said:

Gazzab said:

The billy big balls business model with lots of shareholders, lots of glitz, grand ambitions, expensive set up and operating costs, huge funding needs, big names, world wide plans, network plans etc is too ambitious for a basic sports car start up. When coupled with a complete lack of experience or engineering skills then it’s clearly the wrong path.
It’s probably too late to switch to an do-able plan and approach.
I am sure it is doable to start in a shed with something in between the old skool and newco TVR.

you'd need big balls to this on...

Dom

I do t think my pea sized balls are big enough for an air fix kit.

[bullittmcqueen]

crosseyedlion said:

TVRs built from parts in recent history have been iva'd with little to no issues. There is nothing to suggest it would be an issue to produce up to the 1000 a year limit as mentioned.

Emissions targets are ever tightening all the time. But only for volume manufacturers. This may actually provide an opportunity for small volume manufacturers.

I'd wager these are mostly kit-cars that were "rebuilt" on old frames with an initial first registration shortly after the second world war and the respective regulations apply. This is how the entire Cobra-scene here in Germany works. You'll get a brand-new car, no part older than 3 months with an initial registration date of 1970. Guys are upping engines, exhausts, whatever no holds barred (brakes always an afterthought :-) ).

If anyone was looking at what these folks are doing with at least one eye open, it would be game over for 97+% of the cars.

I get that small- and ultra-small volume manufacturers are exempt from a lot of stuff, but there's a whole lot of regulation that still applies and that still takes a lot of money to meet. I don't think that any of the old TVRs would have the slightest chance of being type-approved by even the lowest of today's standards.

[Silenceisgolden]

Why haven't Newco just copied the business model of someone like Ginetta as they appear to have everything that Less Edgar is dreaming for TVR including their own LMP car. They manufacture their cars in a modest 75,000 sq ft factory in Leeds (why does TVR need a 200,000 sq ft factory?) and are even going down the road of building a limited number of 6L V8 supercars for a whopping £340,000 next year. The turnover was £8.5M in 2018 which went down from £9.3M the year before. I'm not sure how healthy their balance sheet is, or if they are a profitable company, but anyone who understands accounts can easily get this info from Companies House to find out.