Discussion
Call me a risk taking Luddite or something but aren't some of you taking this a bit far? Having driven sports cars for the last 30+ years (ok the Lotus7 & Caterham had a rear r-o-bar, are you going the way of Ralph Nader in the States who managed to get convertibles banned in the U.S.
Side impact bars are a relatively new invention too.
When in my 20's and road rallying on a egular basis, I used to say that I would really like my road car to have full cage/full harnesses etc but in reality it's not practical for every day use and as some here have said, the resale value (and in some instances the insurance cover) is affected by such mods.
I'll be off on me bike now then (Triumph Sprint ST without side bars/r-o bars/ air bags)
Side impact bars are a relatively new invention too.
When in my 20's and road rallying on a egular basis, I used to say that I would really like my road car to have full cage/full harnesses etc but in reality it's not practical for every day use and as some here have said, the resale value (and in some instances the insurance cover) is affected by such mods.
I'll be off on me bike now then (Triumph Sprint ST without side bars/r-o bars/ air bags)
Having had Two Half Hoop Roll Bars fitted to the Chimaera 18 months ago I'm a strong advocate of the service I got from Penninsular. They fitted them in 4 days and put a Four point harness in at the same time for around the £500 mark.
The reason ... I'm afraid I have knowledge of a high number of Rolled TVR's and there is precious little protection in the stanbdard car!... plus I think it looks great (It's the Yellow car at the Edgemoor)
The reason ... I'm afraid I have knowledge of a high number of Rolled TVR's and there is precious little protection in the stanbdard car!... plus I think it looks great (It's the Yellow car at the Edgemoor)
Tony Hall said: Call me a risk taking Luddite or something but aren't some of you taking this a bit far? Having driven sports cars for the last 30+ years (ok the Lotus7 & Caterham had a rear r-o-bar, are you going the way of Ralph Nader in the States who managed to get convertibles banned in the U.S.
Side impact bars are a relatively new invention too.
When in my 20's and road rallying on a egular basis, I used to say that I would really like my road car to have full cage/full harnesses etc but in reality it's not practical for every day use and as some here have said, the resale value (and in some instances the insurance cover) is affected by such mods.
I'll be off on me bike now then (Triumph Sprint ST without side bars/r-o bars/ air bags)
Sorry Tony, but seeing a good friend die in an accident that there is a possiblity he would have walked away from if he'd had a roll bar fitted, does make you think about things. From the rection to this thread you can tell that many of us are thinking the same thing. It's a basic fact that Griffiths and Chimaeras have no roll-over or side impact protection whatsoever, and people are rightly concerned by this.
At the end of the day, it's down to personal choice and whether you feel safe in car without adequate protection....
It's a fair point to say that many cars have inadequate protection, no-one is saying TVR are any worse than other small output sportscar maker, I think people just want to know if they can retro fit some safety gear that may help save their lives in an accident, I don't see anything wrong with that...
Podie said:
Tony Hall said: Side impact bars are a relatively new invention too.
Didn't the Wedge's have them? - not strictly impact bars... but steel braces on the inside of the doors...?
Your right Podie, When I rebuilt the wedge (early Tasmin FHC)I took the doors off and they weighed a ton!! There were huge bars in the doors. This was due to the fact the car was to be sold on the American market and side impact bars were mandatory.
Psychobert said: Might be a daft question, but what would this do to insurance premiums? I was considering a rollbar for a long time before I bought the car (and won't let an increase in premium put me off), but prior experience of any mods to production cars suggests its going to be expensive.
Ideas from anyone thats already got one?
When I had a roll bar fitted to the S I advised the insurance company, they noted it and the premium stayed the same.
The individual hoop ones look pretty but...
I'm seen this design collapse on other cars because the triangulation base is very narrow...
The MSA guidelines basically recommend the goal style or variations with added bracing... They have a lot of experience in these things.
Most of the designs I have seen also put the bars withing striking distance of your head. Put bluntly, any sizeable impact could result in your head being hit with the equivalent of a baseball bat... That is more likely to happen than the car rolling, so in fact the injury risk has increased.
I'm with Sunninghill and my insurance premiums have not increased with a roll bar.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
I'm seen this design collapse on other cars because the triangulation base is very narrow...
The MSA guidelines basically recommend the goal style or variations with added bracing... They have a lot of experience in these things.
Most of the designs I have seen also put the bars withing striking distance of your head. Put bluntly, any sizeable impact could result in your head being hit with the equivalent of a baseball bat... That is more likely to happen than the car rolling, so in fact the injury risk has increased.
I'm with Sunninghill and my insurance premiums have not increased with a roll bar.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
Tony Hall said: Call me a risk taking Luddite or something but aren't some of you taking this a bit far? Having driven sports cars for the last 30+ years (ok the Lotus7 & Caterham had a rear r-o-bar, are you going the way of Ralph Nader in the States who managed to get convertibles banned in the U.S.
Does anyone remember the video of an Lancer Evo being gooned around a French track by an instructor. He went a few inches too far and clipped the kerb. The car rolled spectacularly despite its relatively low speed. It brought home how easy it would be to flip my Tiv on track. Whilst I haven't got a rollbar (yet) I now rarely drive with the roof off when on track just because I always have that incident in mind.
The reason ... I'm afraid I have knowledge of a high number of Rolled TVR's
Let's get things into perspective here...
It is not a high number. I know of about 6 in the last 5 years. Given that about 5% of the cars are written off in accidents a year (mainly single vehicle ones)the proportion is not that high.
Doesn't mean that added protection and other safety measures are not worth it but consider the fact that more people die from DIY accidents each weekend than the number of rolled TVRs in a year!
To be honest the biggest contribution to TVR safety actually with the driver. I do think that driver training and even an additional licence test should be mandatory with any powerful car. Too many accidenats are caused/made worse by driver error which could have been avoided with additional training and tuition.
Roll bars will help in some cases but avoidance is even better.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
>> Edited by shpub on Wednesday 29th January 09:57
Steve, you're right when you say avoiding an accident in the first place is better than adding roll bars, etc. But accidents are unpredictable and often unpreventable (otherwise they'd be "deliberates" I suppose! 
). Sure, the numbers of rollovers aren't high in the great scheme of things. But if just one person dies because basic safety equipment wasn't fitted to their car, that's one too many IMHO.... Ted makes a good point, that it's all too easy to flip a car - you don't have to be driving hard or fast to have an accident.
Agree 100%. You're absolutely right. You have to do additional tests to tow trailers and things these days, why not an additional test to drive more powerful vehicles? Might even be able to argue for a raised motorway speed limit for holders of "fast car" licences then....
Flasher makes a good point, too - those of us who own TVRs have made the decision to take the risk that goes with owning one of these beasts. But my point is that our passengers haven't. Of course, if you're driving somewhere and someone wants to come with you, that's their decision. But do they know they haven't got the protection offered by, say, a Mercedes? You can never assume that. Ultimately, responsibility for passengers and their safety rests with the driver, and as I said before, if I kill myself on the roads because I bought a Griff instead of a Cerbera, that's my own fault. But if I kill or disable a passenger - hm. Don't want to go there.
>> Edited by SGirl on Wednesday 29th January 11:22
). Sure, the numbers of rollovers aren't high in the great scheme of things. But if just one person dies because basic safety equipment wasn't fitted to their car, that's one too many IMHO.... Ted makes a good point, that it's all too easy to flip a car - you don't have to be driving hard or fast to have an accident.
I do think that driver training and even an additional licence test should be mandatory with any powerful car.
Agree 100%. You're absolutely right. You have to do additional tests to tow trailers and things these days, why not an additional test to drive more powerful vehicles? Might even be able to argue for a raised motorway speed limit for holders of "fast car" licences then....
Flasher makes a good point, too - those of us who own TVRs have made the decision to take the risk that goes with owning one of these beasts. But my point is that our passengers haven't. Of course, if you're driving somewhere and someone wants to come with you, that's their decision. But do they know they haven't got the protection offered by, say, a Mercedes? You can never assume that. Ultimately, responsibility for passengers and their safety rests with the driver, and as I said before, if I kill myself on the roads because I bought a Griff instead of a Cerbera, that's my own fault. But if I kill or disable a passenger - hm. Don't want to go there.
>> Edited by SGirl on Wednesday 29th January 11:22
Firstly, flasher sorry to hear about your friend, in the circumstances you took my outburst rather politly.
Ted, your example is from the TRACK. Agree as an ex competitor, a decently designed cage, preferably full cage (and in Hillclimbs you can still compete in a roadgoing car without any cage (haven't checked this years blue book)) is in my eyes a definite requirement. But on the road, unless you want to be driving around in a race/rally car then its not usually practical.
Shpub, agree, if the roll bars are not designed correctly, with adequate bracing and far enough away from the head they can do more damage. A good wack on the head as you fly about can do serious damage to a skull, a collapsing bar could trap or poss even guilotine you. When I acted as scrutineer, you would be amazed at the number of helmets that protruded above the roll bar, especially caterfields etc.
Podie, I had "side impact bars" in the doors of my 1973 Clan Crusader, they were there to hang the door handle & window mechanism on. Unfortunately by 1980 they rusted through and the window collapsed into the door.
If we're all really that concerned we should be driving Volvos with full cages and 6 point harnesses, fire extinquishers, battery cut outs, etc. Oh dear I'm off again.
Ted, your example is from the TRACK. Agree as an ex competitor, a decently designed cage, preferably full cage (and in Hillclimbs you can still compete in a roadgoing car without any cage (haven't checked this years blue book)) is in my eyes a definite requirement. But on the road, unless you want to be driving around in a race/rally car then its not usually practical.
Shpub, agree, if the roll bars are not designed correctly, with adequate bracing and far enough away from the head they can do more damage. A good wack on the head as you fly about can do serious damage to a skull, a collapsing bar could trap or poss even guilotine you. When I acted as scrutineer, you would be amazed at the number of helmets that protruded above the roll bar, especially caterfields etc.
Podie, I had "side impact bars" in the doors of my 1973 Clan Crusader, they were there to hang the door handle & window mechanism on. Unfortunately by 1980 they rusted through and the window collapsed into the door.
If we're all really that concerned we should be driving Volvos with full cages and 6 point harnesses, fire extinquishers, battery cut outs, etc. Oh dear I'm off again.
DIGGA said
The rear cage certainly stiffens the chassis up, but there's still the unresolved issue of side impact and the fact that above and in front (i.e. windscreen header rail height) there's nothing of any usbstance to protect you.
Point of interest chief... when I was following you a bit back your head comes above your roll bar, so you either need a hairline like mine, shave some weight off your arse or duck quick.
Side impact however is a concern as Marcus says, but the only real way to address this would be a roll cage, but would this be practical in a road car...
DC
I got mine from Rally Design www.raldes.co.uk. About £8 a metre. It comes in lots of colours. The centre hole is offset so that you can get the max padding between you and the bar. It is about 100mm in diameter so you need space. It won't solve a badly designed bar that doesn't have clearance.
Don't use pipe lagging even though it looks similar.
Don't use pipe lagging even though it looks similar.
jodypress said: i spoke to my insurance company re roll bars and uprated brakes.
brakes 5% of annual premium
roll bar 15% of annual premium
bit strange that one
Got another interesting one.. If I fit a roll bar and/or brake upgrades my premium remains the same for road use, XS goes up £100 and I am excluded from track days.
In other words, once I take off the little extra I've just paid for track day cover the premium goes up for road use. Hmm
Dai Capp said Point of interest chief... when I was following you a bit back your head comes above your roll bar, so you either need a hairline like mine, shave some weight off your arse or duck quick.
DC
Yes, you're right (I do try and hunch down in my seat when the MSA scrutineers look over the car at sprints) and the bar is perilously close to your head too.
I've fitted roll bar padding, and had the drivers seat lowered. I am already working on reducing the size of my arse, but despite a new, more vigorous training regime for 2003, this still doesn't seem possible!
I do take Tony Hall's point, and especially when you see the competitors at, for example the Goodwood Revival - short sleves, pi55 pot crash helmets and no rollover protection - I do feel less than cowardly.
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