If TVR went bust
Discussion
I'm gonna jump in here and add my little bit as an enthusiast rather than a driver!
Having just finished reading Muscles and Curves, I have read exactly what PW has done to TVR since taking over!
If TVR went under PW would have to sell up, and that means he would no longer be in charge.
PW bought TVR, looked at the Tasmin and thought 'hmmm, nice, I like it (he owned one) but it's missing something!' He looked around for Ned, saw him pissing up against a Range Rover and thought "Thats it!!! I'll stick in a V8"
This created the greatest cars (IMO) ever built in Britain, Europe, the World, over the last 20 years!
He gave us the SEACs, the V8S, the Griff, Chimaera, Cerbera Tuscan and Tamora! He was banned from racing the SEAC, so he set up the Tuscan Challenge, He wanted to win Le Mans with a Works team, he built the Speed 12! The FIA shit themselves, realising this car was going to wipe the floor with everything before shitting on their heads! So they moved the goal posts, but PW bounced back with the Cerbera Speed 12, The Tuscan R is flying in the GTO's! This man is a GOD! and if TVR lost PW, TVR would be no more!
If they were bought by Ford/VAG/GM they would be built to a better quality, but they would get Air bags and bumpers and ABS and ESP and every other electronic gizmo that makes driving euroboxes and bore! The main reason people buy TVR's and are so enthusiastic about them is because there is nothing like them anywhere else in the world, they are a rare breed which has grown from a seedling into a florishing plant, it's resiliant, it's come back from near death time and time again!
We should not be thinking about TVR going bust, we should be doing our best to make sure they stay above the water! I don't want PW to sell or leave TVR, he has brought us some of the most devestating cars of the last 20 years! The longer he stays the better!
Having just finished reading Muscles and Curves, I have read exactly what PW has done to TVR since taking over!
If TVR went under PW would have to sell up, and that means he would no longer be in charge.
PW bought TVR, looked at the Tasmin and thought 'hmmm, nice, I like it (he owned one) but it's missing something!' He looked around for Ned, saw him pissing up against a Range Rover and thought "Thats it!!! I'll stick in a V8"
This created the greatest cars (IMO) ever built in Britain, Europe, the World, over the last 20 years!
He gave us the SEACs, the V8S, the Griff, Chimaera, Cerbera Tuscan and Tamora! He was banned from racing the SEAC, so he set up the Tuscan Challenge, He wanted to win Le Mans with a Works team, he built the Speed 12! The FIA shit themselves, realising this car was going to wipe the floor with everything before shitting on their heads! So they moved the goal posts, but PW bounced back with the Cerbera Speed 12, The Tuscan R is flying in the GTO's! This man is a GOD! and if TVR lost PW, TVR would be no more!
If they were bought by Ford/VAG/GM they would be built to a better quality, but they would get Air bags and bumpers and ABS and ESP and every other electronic gizmo that makes driving euroboxes and bore! The main reason people buy TVR's and are so enthusiastic about them is because there is nothing like them anywhere else in the world, they are a rare breed which has grown from a seedling into a florishing plant, it's resiliant, it's come back from near death time and time again!
We should not be thinking about TVR going bust, we should be doing our best to make sure they stay above the water! I don't want PW to sell or leave TVR, he has brought us some of the most devestating cars of the last 20 years! The longer he stays the better!
tvradict : WELL SAID !!!! 
I think everyone has lost the plot, the question is what would happen if TVR went bust? do you believe they would? They have a market which is growing and I believe the products are right. The press think they are great and that is a major factor in its self. TVR are a strong force in the British sports car scene as are Morgan,Westfield etc.The problems will come with a turn down in the general economy and a lack of punters.
Are TVR doing really well? From what I hear (rumours from various places including PH) TVR were making more cars a few years ago and they have let a load of staff go. We know they are spending cash fixing Tuscans and to a lesser extent Cerberas and I'm sure I read somewhere that profits were well down but I could have been dreaming. It could happen, it has done in the past. And as for all this tosh about them only being TVR cos they build their own engines...they've only been doing that for the past 4 years, before that is was engines from Ford, Rover or whoever. As I've said before a Tuscan which is exactly the same but with a breathed on BMW M3 engine is still a TVR tuscan just as my Griffith is a TVR Griffith. Don;t get me wrong, if I had a hat on I'd take it off to Peter Wheeler I have great respect for what he has done, and I think that building their own engines is the right way to go, but I think they should have taken more time to get the quality sorted, they have lost a lot of customers which is very sad as the Tuscan is a stunning car. I really hope that the Tamora is good and proves to be reliable, TVR need it to be!
quote:Yes, but the difference here is that even the top bods are employees. However, Peter Wheeler OWNS TVR. He bought it. It is his. It is therefore his baby. So you can't really compare him to the 'top bods' in other car companies.
I must admit I didn't realise the current top chap did so much for tvr. Most car company top bods move on every few years in a blur of golden h£llo's and goodby£'s.
I have to add my tuppeneth to this.
I am as British as wife-beating and football hooliganism. Consequently I love the cars TVR turn out. I particularly love the relative simplicity of the last generation. An old-fashioned engine compensating for collosal inefficiency through sheer magnitiude. The rest of the car is just good-old British engineering.
What does disappoint me is the little things that would be oh so easy to put straight at virtually no cost. Browse through these pages and the same things come up time and time again. They are often small things that the factory could easily design out. For example - a subject very close to my heart - underseal the bloody chassis!!!
It is also childs play these days to improve customer service and quality at very little cost. Most of the tossers in the city that I know would love a TVR but are driven away by the quality concerns, so they buy Boxsters instead.
Hmmm. Forget everything. I've just defeated my own argument...
I am as British as wife-beating and football hooliganism. Consequently I love the cars TVR turn out. I particularly love the relative simplicity of the last generation. An old-fashioned engine compensating for collosal inefficiency through sheer magnitiude. The rest of the car is just good-old British engineering.
What does disappoint me is the little things that would be oh so easy to put straight at virtually no cost. Browse through these pages and the same things come up time and time again. They are often small things that the factory could easily design out. For example - a subject very close to my heart - underseal the bloody chassis!!!
It is also childs play these days to improve customer service and quality at very little cost. Most of the tossers in the city that I know would love a TVR but are driven away by the quality concerns, so they buy Boxsters instead.
Hmmm. Forget everything. I've just defeated my own argument...
There are a huge number of people waiting in the wings with their deposits in hand, ready for the time tvr's are engine trouble free. If it was announced tomorrow that they've struck a deal with an engine supplier (Hartge / whoever) and the Tuscan was now available with it as an option, they would be swamped with orders. I reckon their customer base would double over night. Never mind it'll be better in a few years etc....
Gotta say I'm looking forward to the next new model in 5 years or so. I reckon it will be an absolute stonker. Wait till the Tuscan R comes out, and the press realise it has a top speed over 210mph! Wake up supercar makers, 'cos there's a new kid in town, and he's rough, tough and noisy!
>> Edited by nubbin on Wednesday 1st May 17:45
>> Edited by nubbin on Wednesday 1st May 17:45
Yes but the difference with Morgan, Westfield, Caterham etc. is they all use someone elses tried and trusted engines.
What worries me is the residual values when the speed six engined cars hit two years old (i.e out of manufacturers warrantee). I reckon they're going to plummet as buyers confidence in these engines will be very low and, to make matters worse, the rebuild costs will be astronomical.
So if residuals plummet then new sales will suffer as buyers run shy of 50% depreciation in 24 months ownership.
The above areas are new problems for TVR. All through the nineties the Griff, Chimp and S models had great residuals and robust and relatively cheap mechanicals which gave buyers some degree of comfort when considering the other niggly build quality issues. Given this then there are many owners of this era of TVR cars who will (rightly) defend them to the end - me included, for all the reasons listed in this thread.
So IMHO I think it could well all end in tears
- and if you think I'm exagerating it's a fact that TVR are STILL rebuilding Tuscan engines, some for the 3rd time, despite claiming that the original problems were down to a bad batch of components (clearly not a design fault then). Lets all keep are fingers crossed that the Tamora engines prove to be more robust - the next 6 months should tell.....
Mike (former owner of a faultless griff and TWO not so faultless Tuscans)
What worries me is the residual values when the speed six engined cars hit two years old (i.e out of manufacturers warrantee). I reckon they're going to plummet as buyers confidence in these engines will be very low and, to make matters worse, the rebuild costs will be astronomical.
So if residuals plummet then new sales will suffer as buyers run shy of 50% depreciation in 24 months ownership.
The above areas are new problems for TVR. All through the nineties the Griff, Chimp and S models had great residuals and robust and relatively cheap mechanicals which gave buyers some degree of comfort when considering the other niggly build quality issues. Given this then there are many owners of this era of TVR cars who will (rightly) defend them to the end - me included, for all the reasons listed in this thread.
So IMHO I think it could well all end in tears
- and if you think I'm exagerating it's a fact that TVR are STILL rebuilding Tuscan engines, some for the 3rd time, despite claiming that the original problems were down to a bad batch of components (clearly not a design fault then). Lets all keep are fingers crossed that the Tamora engines prove to be more robust - the next 6 months should tell.....
Mike (former owner of a faultless griff and TWO not so faultless Tuscans)
quote:
Gotta say I'm looking forward to the next new model in 5 years or so. I reckon it will be an absolute stonker. Wait till the Tuscan R comes out, and the press realise it has a top speed over 210mph! Wake up supercar makers, 'cos there's a new kid in town, and he's rough, tough and noisy!
I think you are right, indications are that the S6 engine (at least as installed in the Tamora) is now getting sorted. Hopefully TVR will now evolve that and the AJP8 over time into engines which will be capable of powering the next few generations of TVRs to silly speeds without the reliability issues we have seen in the Tuscans (by silly I mean really, really high :-))
Perhaps a few of the potential customers should put their money in the cars. If they love TVR that much, why don't they accept that life with these cars can be difficult, but the pleasure derived from driving one totally outweighs the little niggles. The Tamora is (I keep saying this) bloody fantastic, the best car I've ever driven. The press all love it, it came close to being EVO car of the year, it's one of the best cars in the world. What is it with all this whingeing? These are just great cars, it's as simple as that. What they are not, is a mass-produced, robot finished mainstream car - they occupy a tiny niche market. They make 1200 cars a year - a year!! - They are NOT, repeat NOT, Porsche, BMW, Ferrari, or any other mass market company with massive resources. They do a good job of producing sensational sports cars, on a budget that BMW probably spend on advertising the 5 series. They have produced a range of their own engines, which as already mentioned, stand comparison with BMW's finest - what do you want, for God's sake?! I don't mind repairing the door seals with silicone, because it saves me a 100 mile round trip, and 3-4 days without the car. It's a minor problem. The mechanicals feel bombproof, and I reckon will stand the test of time. I reckon the engines are sorted, so go and buy one if you have the money!! And, the engine noise is totally unique - you can get a V8 noise anywhere these days...
TVR are trying to sort out the residuals, by offering very attractive finance options and high residuals, through the dealers. That represents further faith in their products....
>> Edited by nubbin on Wednesday 1st May 17:49
TVR are trying to sort out the residuals, by offering very attractive finance options and high residuals, through the dealers. That represents further faith in their products....
>> Edited by nubbin on Wednesday 1st May 17:49
As davidd said, TVR building their own engines is a good thing! But it's a good thing at the wrong time! IMO they rushed the engines through, in an attempt to stop them costing money and start making it, the only way for them to do that is to sell them! BUT, the engines weren't developed enough, as shown (and lets not kick this off again) by the problems with the speed six, which now appear to be solved, all will be revealed as Flasher, nubbin etc start piling on the miles in the Tamora's!
However there are some of us who like the sound of a howling V8 at 5500rpm! Which, I'm afraid just cannot be heard in a Tamora! Now, I'm not saying the Tamora/Tuscan/Cerbera sound bad, but IMO nothing sounds better than a fat Wedge pipe or two semi-skimmed on tpipes as found he Griff! Standing behind a burbling Griff/Wedge at idle is just incredable, awesome, lovely, but the SS just isn't the same! The best move PW could make just now would be to drop a 520 V8 (as found in Steve Heaths Wedge) into the Tamora! But that doesn't seem like it's on the cards!
I think PW built the Tamora to replace the Griff in the model range, which is fair enough, but the design is too close to the Griff, too many lines are similar, the faired in lights, the bonnet, the back end without the aero aids, yes it's shorter and has the flared arches but it is too close!!
The saying "Nothing beats Cubic Inches" is true, there needs to be something in the model range to tempt current Wedge/Griff/Chimaera owners away from them and onto the factory order book! For me, there isn't anything, nothing with quite the same sound, the Cerbera, nice car, but it isn't the same!
A new Vixen, same chassis as the Tuscan/Tamora, with the same suspension, but with a nice 5 litre Ford V8 under the bonnet, completely new, very radical styling like the Tuscan was, and all for around £37K! Any takers?
However there are some of us who like the sound of a howling V8 at 5500rpm! Which, I'm afraid just cannot be heard in a Tamora! Now, I'm not saying the Tamora/Tuscan/Cerbera sound bad, but IMO nothing sounds better than a fat Wedge pipe or two semi-skimmed on tpipes as found he Griff! Standing behind a burbling Griff/Wedge at idle is just incredable, awesome, lovely, but the SS just isn't the same! The best move PW could make just now would be to drop a 520 V8 (as found in Steve Heaths Wedge) into the Tamora! But that doesn't seem like it's on the cards!
I think PW built the Tamora to replace the Griff in the model range, which is fair enough, but the design is too close to the Griff, too many lines are similar, the faired in lights, the bonnet, the back end without the aero aids, yes it's shorter and has the flared arches but it is too close!!
The saying "Nothing beats Cubic Inches" is true, there needs to be something in the model range to tempt current Wedge/Griff/Chimaera owners away from them and onto the factory order book! For me, there isn't anything, nothing with quite the same sound, the Cerbera, nice car, but it isn't the same!
A new Vixen, same chassis as the Tuscan/Tamora, with the same suspension, but with a nice 5 litre Ford V8 under the bonnet, completely new, very radical styling like the Tuscan was, and all for around £37K! Any takers?
I constantly hear people whinging about TVR residuals but are they really that bad? Now personally I don't care because when I bought my Griffith I wanted to keep it for longer than a year. So not being a subject that’s dear to my heart I have no mathematical evidence, but come on guys, show me any expensive car that doesn't drop a wad in the fist year or two. Porsches, Jaguars, and BMWs, the lot, you can get some cracking deals on them all if you hunt around. OK so you've seen a 2000 year Tuscan for 25k 'ish and it cost say 42-43k new. I expect you can pick up £60k Porsche for 40k now and that's a similar size loss. People who buy second or third cars as toys do so because they want them not because they have “strong” residuals, that’s the sort of nonsense people go into when trying to justify the next model-up BMW to their boss as a company car, not when they are buying a toy.
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