New TVR still under wraps!

[BJWoods]

Top Gear: TVR teams up with Gordon Murray, Cosworth (June 2015)

"Frankly, it sounds like God’s own sports car."

Edited by BJWoods on Thursday 4th October 13:54

[spagbogdog]

Englishman said:

Well here is another that has pulled their deposit.

Why?

50% because of the lack of any projection of delivery date - a place in the queue really didn't help
40% because, on reflection after seeing the car in the flesh, it just doesn't look special enough, the front being the worst
10% because of communication to deposit holders, or rather lack of anything substantial

I will still be following progress with great interest and hope the new TVR company are successful though.

Sorry to hear your withdrawal..can I ask what car you've now decided to go for..??

[Englishman]

spagbogdog said:

Englishman said:

Well here is another that has pulled their deposit.

Why?

50% because of the lack of any projection of delivery date - a place in the queue really didn't help
40% because, on reflection after seeing the car in the flesh, it just doesn't look special enough, the front being the worst
10% because of communication to deposit holders, or rather lack of anything substantial

I will still be following progress with great interest and hope the new TVR company are successful though.

Sorry to hear your withdrawal..can I ask what car you've now decided to go for..??

I'm a TVR nut (since 1980) who was going to sell a couple of cars to fund most of the new one. Now I've just bought another older one (SEAC) to add to the stable.

[N7GTX]

BJWoods said:

October update, has an expectation of some big/good news. so up to three weeks or so and counting..
Once the factory actually gets handed over, things should accelerate. Then we can be in a better position to judge progress

I do admire your faith, patriotism and patience. I really do. But what if there is no October update? Or no detail or no news? Or no factory development? Or lack of investment? How long will your amazing belief continue?
I just find it extraordinary that a new manufacturer fighting to get into a market full of choice is not pushing out info, not just to deposit holders, but to all those who have never heard of TVR (lots of them believe me), those who do not know there is a car and waiting to be produced (even more of them including the Lakeland Motor Museum!!!) and to those who love the brand. They are all potential customers.
I sincerely hope this does not turn out to be a flop but events to date do not instil me with any confidence.

[spagbogdog]

Englishman said:

spagbogdog said:

Englishman said:

Well here is another that has pulled their deposit.

Why?

50% because of the lack of any projection of delivery date - a place in the queue really didn't help
40% because, on reflection after seeing the car in the flesh, it just doesn't look special enough, the front being the worst
10% because of communication to deposit holders, or rather lack of anything substantial

I will still be following progress with great interest and hope the new TVR company are successful though.

Sorry to hear your withdrawal..can I ask what car you've now decided to go for..??

I'm a TVR nut (since 1980) who was going to sell a couple of cars to fund most of the new one. Now I've just bought another older one (SEAC) to add to the stable.

That's a fantastic collection you've got Sir..
Let's see what the new update has to say..I think we'll here from TVR pretty soon tbh..

[BJWoods]

N7GTX said:

I do admire your faith, patriotism and patience. I really do. But what if there is no October update? Or no detail or no news? Or no factory development? Or lack of investment? How long will your amazing belief continue?
I just find it extraordinary that a new manufacturer fighting to get into a market full of choice is not pushing out info, not just to deposit holders, but to all those who have never heard of TVR (lots of them believe me), those who do not know there is a car and waiting to be produced (even more of them including the Lakeland Motor Museum!!!) and to those who love the brand. They are all potential customers.
I sincerely hope this does not turn out to be a flop but events to date do not instil me with any confidence.

That is a lot of "what ifs"!!

I have no 'amazing belief'

When did you put a deposit down? perhaps you have amazing expectations of do everything in a matter of months/couple of years or tahtheir would not be inevitable delays in such a massive project?

if any of those "what ifs" do/don't happen. I'll simply ring up and ask what is going on (as I have done before)
'what if' no sensible answer, then I'd take a view..

ref 'patience' ?
brand new car to be designed/developed\finance\factory\recruitment\etc\etc.. how long do you think it would take?!

ref 'patriotism - nope - If any other car company in any country made a car with this spec/etc.. I'd happily buy it!!


as for those, who do not know it exists..

well at some point there will be press cars, these will be released to the press, who will drive and report on them .. as the do with any new car..

and then loads of car enthusiasts, who do not know it exists. will know it exists.. this timing would presumably be aimed at around just before early customer deliveries..

and people could put an order in.. a certain video blogger, with an early build slot, will no doubt be vblogging about the buying journey and taking delivery, then driving it, then 1.4 million subscribers around the world will get to 'know' about it as well.


seriously though.. Next step is factory,funding phase for it. this will either happen or not.. then we can see.
My current view is it seems likely to happen.. Optimistic it will, but no 'amazing belief'..

as I said I never quite believed we would get as far as the 'prototype'.. !

but it exists!

Edited by BJWoods on Thursday 4th October 20:03

Edited by BJWoods on Thursday 4th October 20:06

[spagbogdog]

BJWoods said:

N7GTX said:

I do admire your faith, patriotism and patience. I really do. But what if there is no October update? Or no detail or no news? Or no factory development? Or lack of investment? How long will your amazing belief continue?
I just find it extraordinary that a new manufacturer fighting to get into a market full of choice is not pushing out info, not just to deposit holders, but to all those who have never heard of TVR (lots of them believe me), those who do not know there is a car and waiting to be produced (even more of them including the Lakeland Motor Museum!!!) and to those who love the brand. They are all potential customers.
I sincerely hope this does not turn out to be a flop but events to date do not instil me with any confidence.

That is a lot of "what ifs"!!

I have no 'amazing belief'

When did you put a deposit down? perhaps you have amazing expectations of do everything in a matter of months/couple of years or tahtheir would not be inevitable delays in such a massive project?

if any of those "what ifs" do/don't happen. I'll simply ring up and ask what is going on (as I have done before)
'what if' no sensible answer, then I'd take a view..

ref 'patience' ?
brand new car to be designed/developed\finance\factory\recruitment\etc\etc.. how long do you think it would take?!

ref 'patriotism - nope - If any other car company in any country made a car with this spec/etc.. I'd happily buy it!!


as for those, who do not know it exists..

well at some point there will be press cars, these will be released to the press, who will drive and report on them .. as the do with any new car..

and then loads of car enthusiasts, who do not know it exists. will know it exists.. this timing would presumably be aimed at around just before early customer deliveries..

and people could put an order in.. a certain video blogger, with an early build slot, will no doubt be vblogging about the buying journey and taking delivery, then driving it, then 1.4 million subscribers around the world will get to 'know' about it as well.


seriously though.. Next step is factory,funding phase for it. this will either happen or not.. then we can see.
My current view is it seems likely to happen.. Optimistic it will, but no 'amazing belief'..

as I said I never quite believed we would get as far as the 'prototype'.. !

but it exists!

Edited by BJWoods on Thursday 4th October 20:03

Edited by BJWoods on Thursday 4th October 20:06

Why so much pessimism..?..it comes across that you want them to fail..
Les very clearly said right at the very beginning that if there was nothing to say he wouldn’t bullsh*t..and would wait until they had something to say.

Look at it from his perspective just for a moment please..they’re acutely aware they’re behind schedule..which further accentuates the clamour for more information.
I think he’s learned a lesson and has been told to keep very quiet until the next phase is ready.

Tyres are being prepped..and rear spoiler is now down (finally). I expect Bonbon productions to reveal their video in the next update...together with a factory start date (new year). It also wouldn’t surprise me to see it wrapped in a new colour (BLACK PLEASE) with new wheels.

I’m content and thoroughly enjoying this journey. My small deposit is just that...small...it doesn’t alter or affect anything I do on a day to day basis. It gives me the chance to own a VERY high performance car..one which no other manufacturer has the audacity to build for the same price. I’m not remotely concerned about the time-frame. It simply gives me the space to bank more cash until delivery and lease a car in the interim.

Optimistic..?...yep..always been a glass brimming over guy

[natben]

To be honest If I knew I t was going to be so long before delivery I would probably have put a deposit down as It would have given me time to save the money for it. Hopefully TVR will start delivering cars in the spring and the press will love it. Cant really see the point of asking for deposits back at this stage though, maybe peoples circumstances have changed and the £90k is too much for them now. That is always a risk when it takes so long to release a product.

[Hobo]

Honestly, with the market as it is at present, I just cannot simply see TVR being able to make a go of this. If they had realeased it 12/24 months back then maybe, but the timing is now terrible with the current choice of vehicles available at the price they are asking.

I genuinely hope I am wrong, as would really like the marque to make a come back, but I just cannot see it, and believe there will be significant amount of people out there to which this will have financial implications.

[skwdenyer]

Hobo said:

Honestly, with the market as it is at present, I just cannot simply see TVR being able to make a go of this. If they had realeased it 12/24 months back then maybe, but the timing is now terrible with the current choice of vehicles available at the price they are asking.

Isn't that almost always what happens with these kinds of projects? By the time the world is convinced that prosperity is here to stay and that investing in hypercars is a good bet, it is far enough along the way for the next recession to turn up just as production starts...

Think XJ220, McLaren F1, and so on.

The benefit here is that they're *not* playing in those rarefied markets. I actually think that - if the product and offering are strong enough - that they can pick up those who can't afford the next tier up - which is, I guess, just like the old days!

[Hobo]

skwdenyer said:

Isn't that almost always what happens with these kinds of projects? By the time the world is convinced that prosperity is here to stay and that investing in hypercars is a good bet, it is far enough along the way for the next recession to turn up just as production starts...

Think XJ220, McLaren F1, and so on.

The benefit here is that they're *not* playing in those rarefied markets. I actually think that - if the product and offering are strong enough - that they can pick up those who can't afford the next tier up - which is, I guess, just like the old days!

I see what your saying, but personally don't believe it is quite that.

90k at present gives you a 'lot' of options, and increase that slightly and your into some serious machinery territory. This isn't really like the TVR of old, who sold relatively cheap and were pitched against limited other more expensive options. They were also ridiculous looking (love it or hate it style), and the new model is a bit.... meh/plain.

Like I said.. I genuinely hope it works out, but personally just can't see them getting enough people to commit to the brand like they did it the older days, as things have moved on. People are more financially savvy, the way vehicles are financed has changed, etc, etc. The later will no doubt result in a 120k GT3 being cheaper to own than a 90k TVR as the depreciation is likely less, and servicing the same, etc, etc.

[BJWoods]

Hobo said:

I see what your saying, but personally don't believe it is quite that.

90k at present gives you a 'lot' of options, and increase that slightly and your into some serious machinery territory. This isn't really like the TVR of old, who sold relatively cheap and were pitched against limited other more expensive options. They were also ridiculous looking (love it or hate it style), and the new model is a bit.... meh/plain.

Like I said.. I genuinely hope it works out, but personally just can't see them getting enough people to commit to the brand like they did it the older days, as things have moved on. People are more financially savvy, the way vehicles are financed has changed, etc, etc. The later will no doubt result in a 120k GT3 being cheaper to own than a 90k TVR as the depreciation is likely less, and servicing the same, etc, etc.

relatively cheap (in the past) is relative.. in the present

current Price of brand new Morgan Plus 8 - £85,000 plus options -- 1998 £34000 (Griff 500 £36,000) both before options..


and spec wise - the new Griffith is in serious machine territory.. very light (cf F-type, new Vantage)front engined, manual, v8 400BHP per tonne -
there isn't any competition? - that I'm aware of (let me know if there is as I'd consider it). closest for me, would have been a 911 R. but utterly impossible for me to get hold of one

Edited by BJWoods on Friday 5th October 13:40

[Hobo]

BJWoods said:

relatively cheap (in the past) is relative.. in the present

current Price of brand new Morgan Plus 8 - £85,000 plus options -- 1998 £34000 (Griff 500 £36,000) both before options..

Not sure I would be using 'Morgan' as an example of a financially secure company if I'm honest, but I take your point.


What however Morgan do have is a range of vehicles which appeal to certain people, which no doubt long term links. I appreciate there are plently of old TVR clients who are still of an age to purchase the new one, but 'personally' I'm just not sure there is enough to support it.


Time will tell. I genuinely hope it does, as if they ever make a car that appeals to me I certainly would not rule out buying again. The new one though simply doesn't do it for me.

[BJWoods]

Hobo said:

Not sure I would be using 'Morgan' as an example of a financially secure company if I'm honest, but I take your point.


What however Morgan do have is a range of vehicles which appeal to certain people, which no doubt long term links. I appreciate there are plently of old TVR clients who are still of an age to purchase the new one, but 'personally' I'm just not sure there is enough to support it.


Time will tell. I genuinely hope it does, as if they ever make a car that appeals to me I certainly would not rule out buying again. The new one though simply doesn't do it for me.

Works for me. and in the flesh - it is everything a modern TVR (for me) should be.. and for those 'tuning minded) for £10k or thereabouts that engine can be supercharged to well over 700 bhp.... An absolute wealth of pretty much off the shelf Ford Coyote Gen 4 V8 tuning options...

(700+/1.25 tonnes = 560+ bhp/tonne.... !)

Edited by BJWoods on Friday 5th October 14:01

[rev-erend]

This really does show how hard a process it is to start up a car company from scratch.

In reality, all that was bought was a name.

Moleskin was lucky in a way to have a factory and cars being made.. but with that came the fact that he was probably paying for a factory that was too big.

[skwdenyer]

Cerb is probably a better comparator. 1998 price £46k. Factor in the VAT rise and that’s £47k. With government’s “optimistic” view of inflation, that’s £60k today.

If we look at it in terms of staying constant in relation to average earnings, the rise would instead be £47k to £80k.

If we look at it in terms of staying constant in relation to average house prices, the rise would instead be £47k to £82k.

Taken in that context, the pricing seems reasonably consistent.

In terms of cars, let’s pick a humdrum example. A Ford Focus cost £9.9k base in 1998. Today that’s £17.7k. Scale that for the TVR as above and we get £84.8k.

Of course what really matters is how the customer views the pricing

[Testarossa]

Yes, yes - very interesting, informative and thought provoking. But I haven't seen a picture for ages...


What can I say, I'm easily pleased.

[N7GTX]

spagbogdog said:

BJWoods said:

N7GTX said:

I do admire your faith, patriotism and patience. I really do. But what if there is no October update? Or no detail or no news? Or no factory development? Or lack of investment? How long will your amazing belief continue?
I just find it extraordinary that a new manufacturer fighting to get into a market full of choice is not pushing out info, not just to deposit holders, but to all those who have never heard of TVR (lots of them believe me), those who do not know there is a car and waiting to be produced (even more of them including the Lakeland Motor Museum!!!) and to those who love the brand. They are all potential customers.
I sincerely hope this does not turn out to be a flop but events to date do not instil me with any confidence.

That is a lot of "what ifs"!!

I have no 'amazing belief'

When did you put a deposit down? perhaps you have amazing expectations of do everything in a matter of months/couple of years or tahtheir would not be inevitable delays in such a massive project?

if any of those "what ifs" do/don't happen. I'll simply ring up and ask what is going on (as I have done before)
'what if' no sensible answer, then I'd take a view..

ref 'patience' ?
brand new car to be designed/developed\finance\factory\recruitment\etc\etc.. how long do you think it would take?!

ref 'patriotism - nope - If any other car company in any country made a car with this spec/etc.. I'd happily buy it!!


as for those, who do not know it exists..

well at some point there will be press cars, these will be released to the press, who will drive and report on them .. as the do with any new car..

and then loads of car enthusiasts, who do not know it exists. will know it exists.. this timing would presumably be aimed at around just before early customer deliveries..

and people could put an order in.. a certain video blogger, with an early build slot, will no doubt be vblogging about the buying journey and taking delivery, then driving it, then 1.4 million subscribers around the world will get to 'know' about it as well.


seriously though.. Next step is factory,funding phase for it. this will either happen or not.. then we can see.
My current view is it seems likely to happen.. Optimistic it will, but no 'amazing belief'..

as I said I never quite believed we would get as far as the 'prototype'.. !

but it exists!

Edited by BJWoods on Thursday 4th October 20:03

Edited by BJWoods on Thursday 4th October 20:06

Why so much pessimism..?..it comes across that you want them to fail..
Les very clearly said right at the very beginning that if there was nothing to say he wouldn’t bullsh*t..and would wait until they had something to say.

Look at it from his perspective just for a moment please..they’re acutely aware they’re behind schedule..which further accentuates the clamour for more information.
I think he’s learned a lesson and has been told to keep very quiet until the next phase is ready.

Tyres are being prepped..and rear spoiler is now down (finally). I expect Bonbon productions to reveal their video in the next update...together with a factory start date (new year). It also wouldn’t surprise me to see it wrapped in a new colour (BLACK PLEASE) with new wheels.

I’m content and thoroughly enjoying this journey. My small deposit is just that...small...it doesn’t alter or affect anything I do on a day to day basis. It gives me the chance to own a VERY high performance car..one which no other manufacturer has the audacity to build for the same price. I’m not remotely concerned about the time-frame. It simply gives me the space to bank more cash until delivery and lease a car in the interim.

Optimistic..?...yep..always been a glass brimming over guy

Why would I want it to fail? It may sound like this to you two as you are both half glass full types
But I'm more of a realist. The last time there was to be an update you all got excited again only to be let down by a long winded rehash of old news. This can only go on so long before people start voting with their feet and already a few have walked away. The market for this car is not limitless by any means: it is a tough world out there.
My main concern is the way the info is coming as the early reports suggested the car was coming in 2017, then 2018 and now when? Yes of course there are a million and one things to sort out, I know that, and keeping quiet as you have nothing to say is not positive news to me.
The next update, in October as promised (not Nov, Dec or Jan) must start to detail when the factory will be fitted out, when the first car WILL (not should or might) be produced and that all financing is in place and secure. If it reads the same as the last, then this project is a dead duck. People will tire and drift away (as they are already doing) and at this stage that is the last thing you want.

[feef]

Testarossa said:

Yes, yes - very interesting, informative and thought provoking. But I haven't seen a picture for ages...


What can I say, I'm easily pleased.

Is that Baymax with a tan in the passenger footwell?

[essexstu]

Hobo said:

I see what your saying, but personally don't believe it is quite that.

90k at present gives you a 'lot' of options, and increase that slightly and your into some serious machinery territory. This isn't really like the TVR of old, who sold relatively cheap and were pitched against limited other more expensive options. They were also ridiculous looking (love it or hate it style), and the new model is a bit.... meh/plain.

Like I said.. I genuinely hope it works out, but personally just can't see them getting enough people to commit to the brand like they did it the older days, as things have moved on. People are more financially savvy, the way vehicles are financed has changed, etc, etc. The later will no doubt result in a 120k GT3 being cheaper to own than a 90k TVR as the depreciation is likely less, and servicing the same, etc, etc.

Hobo, I'm genuinely interested to know what the 'lot' of options are as an alternative to the Griffith? New cars only though, if you look at used then the the list is potentially dozens and dozens.

I have a deposit but I am still not 100% certain of proceeding with the purchase particularly if there are better cars for the same money.