New TVR still under wraps!
Discussion
Don1 said:
Lister Storm. I loved those.
I remember going to Le Mans in 1996 when the "Newcastle United" Lister Storm ran that in the GT2 class. By 1pm the next day it was running like a bag of spanners with frequent pit visits, but went back on track two minutes before the flag so it could finish - a great effort. Not sure it elicited the sales they wanted though.I think it was Marcos that ran that year as well, but it only lasted a few hours before retiring - a Marcos group were next to us on the camp site and the beer bottle wall grew faster afterwards.....
Biggriff said:
At least Ginetta got on with it. They have apparently sold 12 of the 20 cars initially scheduled so I guess money can’t buy taste.
I don’t ever see the Griff making production if I’m honest. It will be so out of date by the time it arrives that it will be irrelevant. I love my TVRs but I’m also a realist. Want to be proved wrong but it’s looking more and more like a pipe dream.
Did Ginetta really sell them or are they some sort of refundable deposit ? If they were, you might say that "TVR have sold 500 cars". And one more question: will this be road-legal ? Homologated ? In the EU ? If not, it doesn't make any sense to compare. I don’t ever see the Griff making production if I’m honest. It will be so out of date by the time it arrives that it will be irrelevant. I love my TVRs but I’m also a realist. Want to be proved wrong but it’s looking more and more like a pipe dream.
But yes, very difficult task indeed for TVR, but i'm still hoping. News is (again) overdue. Does anyone know what EURO 7 will bring ? I read it will focus more on CO2 emissions and the big question will be, whether there are exemptions for small producers. Superimposed is the fact, that the entiry industry is moving towards electrification and that the impact will start to be felt soon. Big guys have all announced to invest big-figures billions into electrification, legislation to ban ice's from 2030/35/40 is already in place in various countries. This is not reversable. Until now, it's been an amateur game, but now one of the biggest industries in the world is pushed onto that playfield. Doesn't bode well for Tesla as well, btw. Their cars look remarkably bland compared to the Audi's, Mercs, Porsches, VWs, Jaguars, Volvos, chinese cars etc. And these companies know a thing or two about producing cars efficiently and competitively in scale.
This will pick up momentum fast and it will be felt soon. Pressure coming in via fleet emissions and ongoing talk in media/politics etc. will have an impact on perception. Electric will be the new normal, ICE will something you have to justify and apologize for. And this will be sooner than you think.
Am i correct in the assumption that for a manufacturer the respective newest regulation is valid ? I.e. if they comply with EUR 6 today, then all individual cars registered before EUR 7 will be permanently allowed, but after the date that EUR 7 becomes mandatory TVR can only sell EUR 7 cars (Given there are no exemptions) ?
This will be immensly difficult for small manufacturers. That means that if production is to start in 2020 they basically got 1-2 years until they have to completely overhaul their drivetrain and there is a substantial risk that they have to start from scratch with either electric/hybrid or a quad-turbo 3-cylinder 1.2 Liter powerhouse (yeahh!!!!). My take is As far as i can see, the entire car was designed for a big fat V8 so how alternatives would fit in (think weight distribution etc) no one knows. Granted,EUR 7 is still an unknown and maybe there will be exemptions but things will get cloudier, no doubt. This will hit other small manufacturers as well. Brexit will not be of much help here, as they will have to access at least the Euro-market, which implies that they must fulfill EU regulations and homologation.
I know that "hoping it will succeed" is not a good proposition and i usually don't try to hang on hope. But this car, if ever built, will be one of the very last of its breed. I want it. So don't be too picky with the front. In the future, we'll all be driven by noiseless, plasticky, talking computers on wheels without a steering wheel. And that, my friends, is a truly frightening thought.
"I consider the new TVR to be the last shout for the proper sportscar" - Gordon Murray
The main issue with EUR 7 aren’t the CO2 figures, which are hard enough to meet, the engines have to guarantee Lambda = 1 in all throttle operating conditions. Currently they need to operate with Lambda = 1 on idle only. With full throttle they typically operate with Lambda = 0.8 to 0.85.
Lambda = 1 on part open or full throttle will cause a power loss of 30-50%.
So it will be pretty much game over for all high powered cars without an additional electric drive train, which need to add even more power to compensate its weight.
I highly doubt that there will be an exemption for the emissions of small series homologation as there haven‘t been any in the past.
Porsche is aware of it and have build the new 992 with enough space in the gearbox to add an electric motor. I assume this will happen with the launch of the 992.2.
Exiting times :-(
Lambda = 1 on part open or full throttle will cause a power loss of 30-50%.
So it will be pretty much game over for all high powered cars without an additional electric drive train, which need to add even more power to compensate its weight.
I highly doubt that there will be an exemption for the emissions of small series homologation as there haven‘t been any in the past.
Porsche is aware of it and have build the new 992 with enough space in the gearbox to add an electric motor. I assume this will happen with the launch of the 992.2.
Exiting times :-(
Edited by christof on Thursday 28th February 10:48
bullittmcqueen said:
Am i correct in the assumption that for a manufacturer the respective newest regulation is valid ? I.e. if they comply with EUR 6 today, then all individual cars registered before EUR 7 will be permanently allowed, but after the date that EUR 7 becomes mandatory TVR can only sell EUR 7 cars (Given there are no exemptions) ?
There is always a difference between approval date and registration date. For example, if EUR7 starts in 2023, if a car has received an EUR6d homologation at the end of 2022 it will be possible to sell it until 2024. But you need a factory
.christof said:
The main issue with EUR 7 aren’t the CO2 figures, which are hard enough to meet, the engines have to guarantee Lambda = 1 in all throttle operating conditions. Currently they need to operate with Lambda = 1 on idle only. With full throttle they typically operate with Lambda = 0.8 to 0.85.
Lambda = 1 on part open or full throttle will cause a power loss of 30-50%.
So it will be pretty much game over for all high powered cars without an additional electric drive train, which need to add even more power to compensate its weight.
I highly doubt that there will be an exemption for the emissions of small series homologation as there haven‘t been any in the past.
Porsche is aware of it and have build the new 992 with enough space in the gearbox to add an electric motor. I assume this will happen with the launch of the 992.2.
Exiting times :-(
You're ignoring the ever-rising specific power output of modern turbo engines. Lambda = 1 on part open or full throttle will cause a power loss of 30-50%.
So it will be pretty much game over for all high powered cars without an additional electric drive train, which need to add even more power to compensate its weight.
I highly doubt that there will be an exemption for the emissions of small series homologation as there haven‘t been any in the past.
Porsche is aware of it and have build the new 992 with enough space in the gearbox to add an electric motor. I assume this will happen with the launch of the 992.2.
Exiting times :-(
The high-performance naturally aspirated engine is almost certainly headed for extinction, but with hot hatches running over 300 hp, 600+ hp is easily achievable for a sports car.
Add in electric spool turbo's (now available from Bosch) to reduce lag, and the future isn't completely grim.
But I doubt we'll see 8,000+ rpm NA screamers again post 2020. Which will be a shame, but there's decades of second-hand stuff to keep me entertained.
@ Zeb, stov
Thx. I was aware that there are some overlaps. The point i was trying to make is, that TVR seemingly already have a hard time configuring/developing/designing the drivetrain and that with the given delays maybe only a small window exists during which to sell them.
This is safe for the people getting the cars and registering them, but for TVR as a whole it may pose a serious problem. It means that they possibly have to redesign the entire drivetrain or worse the whole chassis to be able to continue to sell the car at all. With production starting in 2020 (if/maybe/maybe not) they certainly have to have that in mind.
Thx. I was aware that there are some overlaps. The point i was trying to make is, that TVR seemingly already have a hard time configuring/developing/designing the drivetrain and that with the given delays maybe only a small window exists during which to sell them.
This is safe for the people getting the cars and registering them, but for TVR as a whole it may pose a serious problem. It means that they possibly have to redesign the entire drivetrain or worse the whole chassis to be able to continue to sell the car at all. With production starting in 2020 (if/maybe/maybe not) they certainly have to have that in mind.
christof said:
The main issue with EUR 7 aren’t the CO2 figures, which are hard enough to meet, the engines have to guarantee Lambda = 1 in all throttle operating conditions. Currently they need to operate with Lambda = 1 on idle only. With full throttle they typically operate with Lambda = 0.8 to 0.85.
Lambda = 1 on part open or full throttle will cause a power loss of 30-50%.
So it will be pretty much game over for all high powered cars without an additional electric drive train, which need to add even more power to compensate its weight.
I highly doubt that there will be an exemption for the emissions of small series homologation as there haven‘t been any in the past.
Porsche is aware of it and have build the new 992 with enough space in the gearbox to add an electric motor. I assume this will happen with the launch of the 992.2.
Exiting times :-(
Thx, yeah, new Macan will be electrified only. Are you sure about there not being any exemptions ? I thought i heard there were various relaxations for SMV and USMV / small and ultra-small volume manufacturers) as for example described here (not official, but was the first thing i found):Lambda = 1 on part open or full throttle will cause a power loss of 30-50%.
So it will be pretty much game over for all high powered cars without an additional electric drive train, which need to add even more power to compensate its weight.
I highly doubt that there will be an exemption for the emissions of small series homologation as there haven‘t been any in the past.
Porsche is aware of it and have build the new 992 with enough space in the gearbox to add an electric motor. I assume this will happen with the launch of the 992.2.
Exiting times :-(
Edited by christof on Thursday 28th February 10:48
https://circabc.europa.eu/webdav/CircaBC/GROW/wltp...
unrepentant said:
El stovey said:
If you’ve already started making the griff before then, won’t those built (2,000 plus per year) be ok?
It’s just the cars built after the new rules that have to comply? If the cat comes along next year they might have sold 6,000 cars by then?
It’s just the cars built after the new rules that have to comply? If the cat comes along next year they might have sold 6,000 cars by then?
Starting production (god knows) in 2020/2021 will maybe leave only 3 years until EUR 7 kicks in (that's another maybe, noone knows yet). This is my point: it means that by the time they got all sorted out, sales, production, etc., they already have to have an alternative for an integral part of the car ready. And it will become more complicated not less.
Difficult. US-sales might help, question is how much upfront additional effort that would be, different homologation, different economics. Or they go for full EU-homologation but that would be the whole shebang. Would be major pain and only make sense if they had reason to believe they could realize the sales-numbers required to support it. Brexit might also help a bit, because if i'm not mistaken the numbers they sell in the UK would then not count against the EU-volume.
An uphill battle for sure.
unrepentant said:
El stovey said:
If you’ve already started making the griff before then, won’t those built (2,000 plus per year) be ok?
It’s just the cars built after the new rules that have to comply? If the cat comes along next year they might have sold 6,000 cars by then?
It’s just the cars built after the new rules that have to comply? If the cat comes along next year they might have sold 6,000 cars by then?
jpf said:
If TVR were to re-enter the US, I would wait a year to see if they are in fact real, then plunk the deposit down.
Pulling for LE and TVR.
I have to say a C7 Corvette is an excellent value for the money in the USA!
TVR (even real TVR) haven't sold a new car in the US since 1986 and with very good reason.Pulling for LE and TVR.
I have to say a C7 Corvette is an excellent value for the money in the USA!
The standard in the US for a "luxury" car is very high. 4 year / 50k mile factory "bumper to bumper" warranty. (Jaguar have 5 year / 60k). Comprehensive dealer network with factory trained technicians. "Fix right first time" is the standard. Free loaner car / free road side assistance for at least the duration of the warranty. Some manufacturers offer free pick up and delivery service. US customers generally expect inventory to be held so that they can walk in and drive away in their new car the same day.
Oh and then there's the Lemon law. And the type approval process, crash testing, NHTSA regulations, state and federal emissions laws etc.. etc... And you need a huge insurance policy to protect you from all manner of costly lawsuits and federal fines.
You can't enter this market and sell a handful of cars, the cost of entry is huge.
With all the emissions regulations are coming and the planned stop of homologating ICE cars in the EU I can‘t see a valuable business plan.
The car isn‘t a stunner, so no unique selling point on the design.
Drivetrain won‘t be useable for the future, NA engines will be dead once Lambda = 1 is required.
Morgan has done, does and will do better. They had a full EUR 4 type approval on their cars, which was quite an achievement back in the days.
They‘ve noticed the problems with future emissions early enough to look for a new engine supplier for their V8 modells. Ford eco boost are still good and will be fine in the future as long a Ford will use them in EU vehicles.
Would be interesting to find out which manufacturer will allow Morgan to use their drivetrain for the new car.
You simply can‘t use an US crate engine for an EU car anymore, the only way to stay in business is to partner up with one of the major players and use their drivetrain, if they sell it to you.
Low volume production isn‘t a business anymore.
Utra low volume, like Hypercars, is still a business. There is a reason why Smolenski was advised by his interim directors to create a TVR hypercar instead of wasting money and ressources to keep in business.
You still can make a business with a track only Hypercar like Brabham.
On the other hand, if one door is closing another door is opening.
Restomods like Singer, Eagle, etc are the future to generate a valuable business.
Why bother with all the regulations when you can use an old chassis and modify the heck out of it without getting problems with future regulations.
If I would own TVR and would be obsessed to go racing, I would build a Hypercar, sell a few and take it to Le Mans in the new Hypercar series.
No worries regarding setting up a factory, sourcing parts, work force, dealer network, etc.
Mission fullfilled.
The car isn‘t a stunner, so no unique selling point on the design.
Drivetrain won‘t be useable for the future, NA engines will be dead once Lambda = 1 is required.
Morgan has done, does and will do better. They had a full EUR 4 type approval on their cars, which was quite an achievement back in the days.
They‘ve noticed the problems with future emissions early enough to look for a new engine supplier for their V8 modells. Ford eco boost are still good and will be fine in the future as long a Ford will use them in EU vehicles.
Would be interesting to find out which manufacturer will allow Morgan to use their drivetrain for the new car.
You simply can‘t use an US crate engine for an EU car anymore, the only way to stay in business is to partner up with one of the major players and use their drivetrain, if they sell it to you.
Low volume production isn‘t a business anymore.
Utra low volume, like Hypercars, is still a business. There is a reason why Smolenski was advised by his interim directors to create a TVR hypercar instead of wasting money and ressources to keep in business.
You still can make a business with a track only Hypercar like Brabham.
On the other hand, if one door is closing another door is opening.
Restomods like Singer, Eagle, etc are the future to generate a valuable business.
Why bother with all the regulations when you can use an old chassis and modify the heck out of it without getting problems with future regulations.
If I would own TVR and would be obsessed to go racing, I would build a Hypercar, sell a few and take it to Le Mans in the new Hypercar series.
No worries regarding setting up a factory, sourcing parts, work force, dealer network, etc.
Mission fullfilled.
Incredible to think that almost 3 years since this thread started deposit holders still don't know what colour they can choose for the car or the Interior colour or even the type of wheels they can choose. Things have slipped badly, If they can't even get a basic options list together at this stage I would say there is no chance of anyone seeing a car this year or even into the middle of next year. As it stands no crash testing has been completed, no factory is in place and no journalists have even driven the car. I think the car is as far away from production now as it was when this thread was started in May 2016.
I wasn't particularly impressed when the car was revealed so never placed a deposit, I figured I would wait and see some reviews and see what the car was like on the road first and was confident I could get a build slot for the LE. I still await any of those things so I have my deposit in my pocket. In the meantime I bought my fourth TVR a 4.5 V8 Cerbera and that looks like it will remain as my only TVR and why not it's brilliant and still leaves a smile on my face every time I drive it.
I still would love to see the Griffith built and on the road but honestly I can't see it happening, maybe it will just be a sticker on a Le Mans car going forward but Les gave it a decent shot but time and finance looks like it has beat him.
I wasn't particularly impressed when the car was revealed so never placed a deposit, I figured I would wait and see some reviews and see what the car was like on the road first and was confident I could get a build slot for the LE. I still await any of those things so I have my deposit in my pocket. In the meantime I bought my fourth TVR a 4.5 V8 Cerbera and that looks like it will remain as my only TVR and why not it's brilliant and still leaves a smile on my face every time I drive it.
I still would love to see the Griffith built and on the road but honestly I can't see it happening, maybe it will just be a sticker on a Le Mans car going forward but Les gave it a decent shot but time and finance looks like it has beat him.
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