Coilovers or...?

[Colonial]

Ok, so since I bought my car (Audi S3) it has had eibach springs with a set of standard shocks. It has the effect of lowering the car 30mm. I want to do something about this. I’m happy with the ride height at the 30mm mark and do not want to go any lower.

I’ve done some pricing and am currently tossing up between a set of Bilstein (or similar) shocks to match the eibach springs a bit better or put the chip on hold and save a bit more for a set of Koni or KW Coilovers. I don’t track my car that often at all. It’s more a car for daily driving with a little bit of spirited driving thrown in (well, pretty often actually), so to be honest I’m not sure whether I actually need to go down the coilover route.

So, yeah, any ideas and comments appreciated.

[GTWayne]

Coilovers are overkill for the road and to be honest are not really essential for T/D's. I would go for the Bilstiens or Konis, don't bother with KW's or the like.
When I was heavily into Bikes I would spend a small fortune on Ohlins shocks, and they are the best, trouble is, I never had the ability to utilise them and the standard shock was often more than good enough. Cars are the same in this case

[chris7676]

What's the definition of "coilovers"? Adjustable shocks with matching springs (whatever you call it) is probably what you need for road/track car.

[charlyvarly]

Coilovers are typically a shock absorber and matched spring with and adjustable spring platform providing an adjustable ride height. Bear in mind if you do use these and lower the car significantly you will be making big changes the suspension geometry. Camber and castor angles on race cars are usually corrected using adjustable top mounts, unless you have camber correction washers on the strut mounts that is.
Koni and Bilstien have spend alot of time and money developing damping characteristics for specific cars and would be the right place to go.

[Ranger 6]

Unless you need to adjust ride height and suspension seetings on a regular basis coilovers are a waste. Better to invest in a set of good adjustable shocks such as the ones you mention.

[Sam_68]

Ranger 6 said:

Better to invest in a set of good adjustable shocks such as the ones you mention.

I've never come across a set of adjustable shocks that didn't also have adjustable spring seats.

You need to be able to adjust both damping and ride height if you want to do any serious suspension tuning, but there is an argument for saying that a good set of well-matched non-adjustable springs and dampers are adequate for road use, and you can do mnore harm than good by messing around with adjustables.

Adjustable spring seats do make corner weighting a hell of a lot easier, though, and corner weighting as part of a full geometry check and set-up can make an appreciable difference to most cars.

[GTWayne]

Sam_68 said:

Ranger 6 said:

Better to invest in a set of good adjustable shocks such as the ones you mention.

I've never come across a set of adjustable shocks that didn't also have adjustable spring seats.

You need to be able to adjust both damping and ride height if you want to do any serious suspension tuning, but there is an argument for saying that a good set of well-matched non-adjustable springs and dampers are adequate for road use, and you can do mnore harm than good by messing around with adjustables.

Adjustable spring seats do make corner weighting a hell of a lot easier, though, and corner weighting as part of a full geometry check and set-up can make an appreciable difference to most cars.

^^^ Koni does a top adjustable damping front shock in non coil over/adjustable spring platform guise and I am sure there are others. You will only need to adjust the damping if you are trying to maximise the cars performance in a given arena and lets face it, on the road it will not be required. A 30% uprated shock and lower uprated spring combo should fit the bill nicely I would have thought.
In actual fact, it is not possible to adjust the corner weights without having adjustable spring platforms but this really is not necessary for a road car. Lowering the car can be achieved by using a shorter spring and yes, it is a good idea to get a geo done at the same time as lowering the car will alter the factory setting.

[Ranger 6]

GTWayne said:

Sam_68 said:

Ranger 6 said:

Better to invest in a set of good adjustable shocks such as the ones you mention.

I've never come across a set of adjustable shocks that didn't also have adjustable spring seats.

^^^ Koni does a top adjustable damping front shock in non coil over/adjustable spring platform guise and I am sure there are others.

Here is one of the Koni adjustables http://www.koni-shock-absorbers.co.uk/koni-sport-d... I'm sure the FSDs and other are also adjustable.

AFAIK Spax and others do similar products. IMHO if you have some adjustable shocks at £300 and a set of coilovers for similar money then the shocks will be a better buy. Without the need to cost in springs, adjusters and machined bodies the simple shocks will provide less of a cost compromise on their internal components.

Some race/rally championships will not allow adjustable spring seats so the shock mfrs have to cater for these and alos the driver who just wants to firm up the car whilst retaining the ability to adjust the damping for 'spirited' driving or track work.

How many people have you seen on forums wingeing about seized spring adjusters 'cos they haven't been used for a couple of years.

[Sam_68]

GTWayne said:

In actual fact, it is not possible to adjust the corner weights without having adjustable spring platforms but this really is not necessary for a road car.

Yes it is - you can do it by shimming the springs, but it's a major pain in the ass.

Personally, I'd always corner weight a car properly before starting to mess around with the damping rates (so that you know you're working from the optimum baseline), so having adjustable dampers without adjustable spring seats seems pretty pointless - if you're not going to go to the trouble of corner weighting, you might as well accept somebody else's fixed idea of the optimum damping as well - but each to their own.

[charlyvarly]

From reading the start this guy is looking for some bolt on performance, this will achieve not much more than knocking you teeth loose. The only real effect on ultimate corning force will be the lower centre of gravity.

[Ranger 6]

charlyvarly said:

From reading the start this guy is looking for some bolt on performance, this will achieve not much more than knocking you teeth loose. The only real effect on ultimate corning force will be the lower centre of gravity.

Disagree totally, a good set of adjustables [u]will[/u] have the desired affect. You'd only knock your teeth out if they were wound up to the top setting. Also there are many more factors on ultimate cornering including roll centre, spring rates, ride height etc etc etc

[GTWayne]

^^^ Get off you fellas and

Colonial said:

I don’t track my car that often at all. It’s more a car for daily driving with a little bit of spirited driving thrown in (well, pretty often actually), so to be honest I’m not sure whether I actually need to go down the coilover route.

[Ranger 6]

Exactly - hence my suggestion - nuff said....

[Colonial]

Cheers all, computer blew up so haven't been online for a bit.

I am already running some minor suspension upgrades (eibach 30mm lowering springs [non adjustable] and some slightly better than stock shocks). From what I can gather adjustable coilovers are going to be a waste of money for what I use the car for. I'm just going to find a decent set of Bilsteins or possibly Koni to get a better match and maybe tighten things up a little bit.

Considering my car usage and the type of car it is it is probably overkill to go down the coilover route at this point in time. I'll get some nice shocks to match the springs and enjoy it like that.

[LaurenceFrost]

I don't understand why someone would want to upgrade their suspension, but then think that something adjustable is overkill because it doesn't see a track.

I would either leave the suspension standard, or go for something very adjustable. Middle ground just seems a bit pointless to me. That's just my take on it though. Others might like the altered (fixed) damping profiles that an aftermarket shock supplies. I'd prefer to tweak it to my needs though.

I have some amazing coilovers on my Evo 9 and I enjoy the car so much more because of them. It's a common misconception that adjustable coilovers introduce a harsh ride and are only really suitable for track.

If someone complains the ride is too harsh then they are not set up correctly.

[Sam_68]

LaurenceFrost said:

I would either leave the suspension standard, or go for something very adjustable. Middle ground just seems a bit pointless to me.

Yeah, I'd tend to agree.

I guess the main problem with this approach is that the more adjustment you have, the more wrong permutations are available for screwing it up! And the cost can get a bit scary, of course.

If you can afford it, and know what you're doing (and what you're trying to achieve), or are willing to pay an exper to interpret your requirements, then fully adjustable is undoubtedly the way to go, though.

[chris7676]

What's wrong with having just (one-way) adjustable shock absorbers ? I have them on all my cars and very happy.

[Ranger 6]

LaurenceFrost said:

I don't understand why someone would want to upgrade their suspension...

er, did you mean that?

as later in the post LaurenceFrost said:

I have some amazing coilovers on my Evo 9 and I enjoy the car so much more because of them.

My point is that you may be happy with yours, but have you ever had them set up properly? corner weights done, damping and rebound adjusted etc etc? It may well be that even though you are happy, you have never experienced what they are capable of. If you're going to fit them then why not use them for what they are intended otherwise it's a waste?

I think it's akin to buying something and only using half of it - why pay for the extra functionality if you're never going to use it? Like buying a Freeview TV and only watching the first 5 channels...?

Not sniping, just interested in the thought process

[LaurenceFrost]

Ranger 6 said:

LaurenceFrost said:

I don't understand why someone would want to upgrade their suspension...

er, did you mean that?

as later in the post LaurenceFrost said:

I have some amazing coilovers on my Evo 9 and I enjoy the car so much more because of them.

Sentences will often read differently when you only quote half of them. What I actually said was "I don't understand why someone would want to upgrade their suspension, but then think that something adjustable is overkill because it doesn't see a track."

What I'm getting at is why would anyone want to upgrade their suspension and not go for anything that is actually worth the upgrade. At that point you might as well not upgrade if your replacing stock for near stock. An adjustable setup is perfectly fine for the road, even if it's aimed at improving your car on circuit.

Ranger 6 said:

My point is that you may be happy with yours, but have you ever had them set up properly? corner weights done, damping and rebound adjusted etc etc? It may well be that even though you are happy, you have never experienced what they are capable of. If you're going to fit them then why not use them for what they are intended otherwise it's a waste?

I think it's akin to buying something and only using half of it - why pay for the extra functionality if you're never going to use it? Like buying a Freeview TV and only watching the first 5 channels...?

Not sniping, just interested in the thought process

I am extremely happy with my setup yes. To answer your questions:

Yes I originally took my car to www.exe-tc.co.uk which is where the suspension came from where it was set up. It has been corner weighted, heights, camber and toe set up to exe-tc's recommended specification, and I have different damper valving to give different bump and rebound characteristics which are even better suited to the car, as well as some different front springs.

I have experimented with the bump and rebound adjustments and I have a road setting which gives great compliance, and awesome handling. I'm well aware of what the suspension can do and what is likely to make grip better or worse. It's certainly not been a "fit and forget" product.

The end result is like day and night between stock and the coilovers I have.

It's still a good point made though. People will often fit coilovers and then just stop there. My work would begin where most people's work ends. Once they are fitted, this is when the real work begins IMO.

[Ranger 6]

Excellent! What I would call 'doing it right'!

In eight years of using forums such as this I think I've seen less than 10 people do what you've done and loads who've whinged that 'it's not right' when they've spent £300 on some coil-overs, simply because they're coil-overs and they wouldn't know how to find the adjusters let alone know what to do if they did

My original point is that many folk are happy with Bilstein/Koni doing the sort of research that you have done and fitting an off-the-shelf solution - that may be fixed settings or with adjustability built into the shock absorber and fixed height springs. Having done that to previous cars I was certainly quite happy as it worked for me.