yellow stuff brake pads
Discussion
DavidCane said:
V8Mate, don;t the Yellows need 1500 miles of normal driving to bed-in? I'm sure that's what I did when I had them on my Z3MCoupe. Bedded them in and did a full day at Snetterton. They were still fine two yeras later. For reference the discs were BMW OEM discs.
If that's the case, I guess that would have been in the instructions. And real men ... 
DavidCane said:
I'm never too sure about this grooved-disc design, I can see that putting extra vibration into the pad under pressure and potentially damaging the edges of the pad material. Is there a single OEM who fit a grooved disc to their car, even the high performance variants? If not, ask yourself why not.
Interesting suggestion/explanation. Don't Pork GT3, Nissan GT-R... come with grooved discs?DavidCane said:
V8Mate, don;t the Yellows need 1500 miles of normal driving to bed-in? I'm sure that's what I did when I had them on my Z3MCoupe. Bedded them in and did a full day at Snetterton. They were still fine two yeras later. For reference the discs were BMW OEM discs.
I'm never too sure about this grooved-disc design, I can see that putting extra vibration into the pad under pressure and potentially damaging the edges of the pad material. Is there a single OEM who fit a grooved disc to their car, even the high performance variants? If not, ask yourself why not.
If my discs don't take the edge off the pad, then some little half-circular grooves aren't going to do it.I'm never too sure about this grooved-disc design, I can see that putting extra vibration into the pad under pressure and potentially damaging the edges of the pad material. Is there a single OEM who fit a grooved disc to their car, even the high performance variants? If not, ask yourself why not.
It's easy, plain discs are a lot cheaper (bean counters), drilled discs look a lot sexier if you're spending the money (marketing man).
Pretty sure the latest Renault hot hatches (Clio/Megane) run grooved discs?
LuS1fer said:
Pads can "glaze" so if nothing else, the grooves help roughen the pads and because pads produce hot gas which the pads then have to fight to remain in ciontact with the disc, they aid venting of these gases to aid better pad contact. So goes the theory.
Shift water out of the way in heavy rain too...good if the discs and pads aren't particularly warm.V8mate said:
Late last year I read a forum response (not PH) from the 'boss' of EBC where he threw a massive hissy fit at forum members for berating the quality of his products based upon historic experiences. He went on to say that the entire range had received a massive amount of R&D and were now nothing like the EBC of old.
I wish I could find that thread/post now, as I'd be keen to share my experience.
I upgraded the brakes on my track E36 over the winter and decided to trust in this chap's word. He was clearly very passionate about the effort his company had put into creating a quality product. A lot of people seem to recommend one type of disc and another type of pad but, I thought, surely there can be no better pairing than having both form the same supplier. Bcause, surely, they will have extensively tested their products on a 'whole system' basis.
So I put EBC grooved discs and Yellowstuff pads on.
Early afternoon yesterday, the car's second track day since the refit, my son starts complaining about lack of brakes as he arrives at some of the corners.
First, a visual check of the pads through the wheels. Seems to be plenty of meat left. Then a check of the fluid; it's hot but not overly. Sent him back out.
Still happening so I tell him to watch his driving; that maybe his heel'n'toeing is resulting in him not hitting the brake pedal properly. He confirms that he's pretty sure he's not mis-pressing the pedal.
Come the end of the day, we get the track wheels off for the road wheels to go back on. A closer look at the pads and they look like sponges. A little tap with the end of a screwdriver and they start to crumble away. 300 track miles and they're shot.
That's pretty crap.
So I won't be using them again. And on the basis of historic opinion plus contemporary experience, I don't think that adding the term 'ever' would be too far out either.
I found an e-mail in my spam mail folder (best place for it) sent via PH, threatening that if I didn't stop telling people how bad my experience of EBC pads was then he would force PH to tell him who I was and then he would take me to court ! I laughed but didn't realise he'd done it to other people too. What an idiot !I wish I could find that thread/post now, as I'd be keen to share my experience.
I upgraded the brakes on my track E36 over the winter and decided to trust in this chap's word. He was clearly very passionate about the effort his company had put into creating a quality product. A lot of people seem to recommend one type of disc and another type of pad but, I thought, surely there can be no better pairing than having both form the same supplier. Bcause, surely, they will have extensively tested their products on a 'whole system' basis.
So I put EBC grooved discs and Yellowstuff pads on.
Early afternoon yesterday, the car's second track day since the refit, my son starts complaining about lack of brakes as he arrives at some of the corners.
First, a visual check of the pads through the wheels. Seems to be plenty of meat left. Then a check of the fluid; it's hot but not overly. Sent him back out.
Still happening so I tell him to watch his driving; that maybe his heel'n'toeing is resulting in him not hitting the brake pedal properly. He confirms that he's pretty sure he's not mis-pressing the pedal.
Come the end of the day, we get the track wheels off for the road wheels to go back on. A closer look at the pads and they look like sponges. A little tap with the end of a screwdriver and they start to crumble away. 300 track miles and they're shot.
That's pretty crap.
So I won't be using them again. And on the basis of historic opinion plus contemporary experience, I don't think that adding the term 'ever' would be too far out either.
So for the record, in my experience (very similar to V8Mate), on my cars, EBC pads are about the worst available and I'd never put anything from EBC on my cars of bikes again.
V8Mate, it was a question rather than a statement (I realised reading it back it could have been interpreted either way) as I genuinely didn't know if anyone fitted grooved discs.
As for instructions, yes I'm pretty sure that there were instruction which stated a 1000 or 1500 mile run in period. It was 3 years ago so I can't remember the exact mileage but it was definitely over 1000miles. Could it be that they need those gentle heat cycles over the first 1000 miles for some final curing stages before being ready for track use? I dunno, just throwing out a theory as my only experience of the Yellows was positive.
As for instructions, yes I'm pretty sure that there were instruction which stated a 1000 or 1500 mile run in period. It was 3 years ago so I can't remember the exact mileage but it was definitely over 1000miles. Could it be that they need those gentle heat cycles over the first 1000 miles for some final curing stages before being ready for track use? I dunno, just throwing out a theory as my only experience of the Yellows was positive.
You could well be right, DC. My car only goes on the road to drive to a track, so c.50 miles tops.
Once there, it undergoes very hard braking; my son drives it and the race instructors seem to encourage him to brake as hard and late as possible.
Maybe yellowstuff just isn't up to that kind of driving in a reasonably heavy car.
As I mentioned in the thread I started in the trackdays section, I've ordered some Bluestuff pads, so I'll see how they fare. If the publicity comes good at the price-point, they seem good value.
Once there, it undergoes very hard braking; my son drives it and the race instructors seem to encourage him to brake as hard and late as possible.
Maybe yellowstuff just isn't up to that kind of driving in a reasonably heavy car.
As I mentioned in the thread I started in the trackdays section, I've ordered some Bluestuff pads, so I'll see how they fare. If the publicity comes good at the price-point, they seem good value.
DavidCane said:
V8Mate, it was a question rather than a statement (I realised reading it back it could have been interpreted either way) as I genuinely didn't know if anyone fitted grooved discs.
As for instructions, yes I'm pretty sure that there were instruction which stated a 1000 or 1500 mile run in period. It was 3 years ago so I can't remember the exact mileage but it was definitely over 1000miles. Could it be that they need those gentle heat cycles over the first 1000 miles for some final curing stages before being ready for track use? I dunno, just throwing out a theory as my only experience of the Yellows was positive.
Don't recall any instructions with mine when I got them last year. In any case I bedded them in in my usual manner with a series of heavy stops on a quiet road (the speed of which was built up progressively). I liked them on my Elise but they did need a bit of heat.As for instructions, yes I'm pretty sure that there were instruction which stated a 1000 or 1500 mile run in period. It was 3 years ago so I can't remember the exact mileage but it was definitely over 1000miles. Could it be that they need those gentle heat cycles over the first 1000 miles for some final curing stages before being ready for track use? I dunno, just throwing out a theory as my only experience of the Yellows was positive.
Ok, found this link http://www.ebcbrakes.com/assets/typicalq&a.htm... which details a 300 mile bedding pattern, but does mention that brake noise will be common for 1000-1500 miles whilst chemical bedding takes place. To me that says the pads are not fully prepped until hitting the 1000 mile point.
For both street and track use they recommend 300 miles of bedding in road use.
For both street and track use they recommend 300 miles of bedding in road use.
rhinochopig said:
Update on my Bluestuff NDX pads. I've now been running these for about 300 miles.
Compared to the Brembo pads, they offer better initial bight, better modulation, and better braking performance - up to a point, which I'll discuss. However, when they fade, they do so in the most unsafe fashion - working fine and then "oh jesus I'm going to hit a wall" type fade.
It's interesting because there is a big debate going on about these pads on the MLR. There are a couple of TA cars running these pads which are having no problems but quite a few road cars that are reporting fade. I suspect some of these reports though are green fade.
I do wonder whether the nature of track driving is suiting these pads better, i.e. very hard braking but a reasonable cool down time between applications of the brakes; they advertised as track pads after-all.
On a twisty B road driven like a tarmac stage, the brakes are getting more frequent applications, and a combination of soft and hard stops, and just don't get a chance to cool down at all. Hit a straight section of road for 10-15 seconds and performance quickly comes back, but it's the unpredictability that worries me.
Mine should be bedded in now, and I'm still getting fade. Will I buy them again? At the moment no; they're ok for brisk driving, but the rapid onset of fade is not suited to a fast road car.
I'll update again when I've put some more miles on them.
Hi mate,Compared to the Brembo pads, they offer better initial bight, better modulation, and better braking performance - up to a point, which I'll discuss. However, when they fade, they do so in the most unsafe fashion - working fine and then "oh jesus I'm going to hit a wall" type fade.
It's interesting because there is a big debate going on about these pads on the MLR. There are a couple of TA cars running these pads which are having no problems but quite a few road cars that are reporting fade. I suspect some of these reports though are green fade.
I do wonder whether the nature of track driving is suiting these pads better, i.e. very hard braking but a reasonable cool down time between applications of the brakes; they advertised as track pads after-all.
On a twisty B road driven like a tarmac stage, the brakes are getting more frequent applications, and a combination of soft and hard stops, and just don't get a chance to cool down at all. Hit a straight section of road for 10-15 seconds and performance quickly comes back, but it's the unpredictability that worries me.
Mine should be bedded in now, and I'm still getting fade. Will I buy them again? At the moment no; they're ok for brisk driving, but the rapid onset of fade is not suited to a fast road car.
I'll update again when I've put some more miles on them.
Have you run them through a bedding in procedure or just done some mixed miles?
What type of fade are you getting? Same compound on the rear?
Never had any problems with the NDX myself hence the questions.
Edited by bob'5 on Sunday 24th July 20:29
have the yellow stuff and groove disks on both the MX5 and the saab 9-5.
on the 5 they gave been brilliant, have done one track day with them, and no problems at all, and alot of hard driving with them they have been great.
the saab, its only been driven on the road since having the pads and disks fitted, but alot of that the car has been fully loaded with camping gear, and also commuting on a run which requires repeated and frequent stops from 70 to 0 in quick succession - and they have been a great improvement over the stock SAAB pads and disks that we had before.
on the 5 they gave been brilliant, have done one track day with them, and no problems at all, and alot of hard driving with them they have been great.
the saab, its only been driven on the road since having the pads and disks fitted, but alot of that the car has been fully loaded with camping gear, and also commuting on a run which requires repeated and frequent stops from 70 to 0 in quick succession - and they have been a great improvement over the stock SAAB pads and disks that we had before.
Paul_M3 said:
Another person here saying that Yellowstuff aren't that great.
I've got a set sat in a box upstairs with hardly any wear on them.
The reason for this is that I took them out and replaced them with Pagids after the EBC's left a load of pad deposits on my discs. (Which in turn gave horrendous judder under braking)
The Pagids a quite frankly in a different league. (Although the same is true of their price tag)
The EBC's may be fine if you don't drive hard, but if thats the case why fit a pad that will eat discs and can squeal quite badly.
The one good thing I will say about the EBC's is that the dust off them was very very low.
The opposite is true of my Pagids unfortunately, which is the ONLY thing I don't like about them.
I was really pleased with the YellowStuff for the first few months (including track days at Spa and Rockingham), but after a full day at the Ring I suddenly experienced judder so bad I assumed the car was falling apart. I've since been advised that the unusual looking disc surface suggests that the judder, which only happens when up to temp, is very likely due to pad deposits. What a shame.I've got a set sat in a box upstairs with hardly any wear on them.
The reason for this is that I took them out and replaced them with Pagids after the EBC's left a load of pad deposits on my discs. (Which in turn gave horrendous judder under braking)
The Pagids a quite frankly in a different league. (Although the same is true of their price tag)
The EBC's may be fine if you don't drive hard, but if thats the case why fit a pad that will eat discs and can squeal quite badly.
The one good thing I will say about the EBC's is that the dust off them was very very low.
The opposite is true of my Pagids unfortunately, which is the ONLY thing I don't like about them.
Hi Guys
Well in spite of what some posters here think I havent been trolling Forums giving stuff away, too much to do although some of our vendors have taken up evaluation prpgrams on our behalf on other cars.
One thing for sure is people are not choosing the right materials, for example using Yellow where new Bluestuff might be needed for that weight of car.
Also this thread was to be about the NEW generation materials yet has still invited comments on older pads which is a shame, if we hadnt at EBC recognised that many earlier compounds could be advanced we would not have done it, would we ???
Of course things progress, thats why Ford dont have Cortinas in their showrooms any more and we have radial tires for drivers.
V8mate, you are possibly one example where Yellow would be pushed past its limit whereas 90% PLUS of the UK Racing Miata MX5 grid race using Yellows.....go check it out anytime.
UKKid35 , what car do you drive please????
My old frind Busa Rush please forward the email you got where I or PH on my behalf threatened you to andy@ebcbrakes.com.
People have said we have GIVEN pads away to influence forums, I suppose thats right because what we wanted was for many drivers to test and comment,thats what they have done and overall something must be right because we have sold a PILE of Bluestuff pads as a result and comments like this come in to me all the time.....................
Cheers Andy! After a few hours in my car my mate has gone with Bluestuff too.
I am still so impressed with the your Blue's! Over and over i have been doing 60 to 0mph stops which is more than you should ask of a set of pads. I can get away with between 5 and 8 full blown dead stops before i feel a bit of fade and then that too passes once cooled again. I have given these pads zero mechanical sympathy and the only thing they have thrown back is a little brake dust!
I cant wait to try out the Orangestuff, i understand that race compound pads are more to scrub off speed that bring the car to a stop but it is going to be good to test both Blue and Orange back to back and on the new High Carbon discs!
Do you know of any telemetry style hardware that one could use to in car to document my findings?
Have a good week mate
Guy
Then I get this Lotus result from one of the Northloop Ring testers
http://www.ebcbrakesblog.com/2011/10/ebc-bluestuff...
Greenstuff in its early days was OK for some markets and not for others, some people wanted it for low dust and in the USA we sold 300,000 sets of it since inception but back in Europe people wanted it to brake like glue on hatch hatches so the low dust aspects had to be engineered away to get the brakes people needed.
Redstuff is now in its SEVENTH formulation reblend and may change again, every time we get feedback or new ingredients come out we add them in to the blends and re test.
I dont see anything wrong with that.
Right now we are refining on Orange for full race use, some pretty good results on the GTR and EVO's but its early days and we are still field testing and looking for a 9/10 rating on this material due to the diversity of drivers and cars.
One such example with full data back up shown here
http://www.ebcbrakesblog.com/2011/09/ebc-orangestu...
Like I said Guys, I am interested to hear any and all comments, good or bad and YES in a way again this all is an EBC promotion because as the last British (and USA for our sintered range) Brake manufacturer we are pushing to progress and expand and improve all the time.
Anyone wanting to criticise that needs to go live somewhere else.
Cheers to all
Well in spite of what some posters here think I havent been trolling Forums giving stuff away, too much to do although some of our vendors have taken up evaluation prpgrams on our behalf on other cars.
One thing for sure is people are not choosing the right materials, for example using Yellow where new Bluestuff might be needed for that weight of car.
Also this thread was to be about the NEW generation materials yet has still invited comments on older pads which is a shame, if we hadnt at EBC recognised that many earlier compounds could be advanced we would not have done it, would we ???
Of course things progress, thats why Ford dont have Cortinas in their showrooms any more and we have radial tires for drivers.
V8mate, you are possibly one example where Yellow would be pushed past its limit whereas 90% PLUS of the UK Racing Miata MX5 grid race using Yellows.....go check it out anytime.
UKKid35 , what car do you drive please????
My old frind Busa Rush please forward the email you got where I or PH on my behalf threatened you to andy@ebcbrakes.com.
People have said we have GIVEN pads away to influence forums, I suppose thats right because what we wanted was for many drivers to test and comment,thats what they have done and overall something must be right because we have sold a PILE of Bluestuff pads as a result and comments like this come in to me all the time.....................
Cheers Andy! After a few hours in my car my mate has gone with Bluestuff too.
I am still so impressed with the your Blue's! Over and over i have been doing 60 to 0mph stops which is more than you should ask of a set of pads. I can get away with between 5 and 8 full blown dead stops before i feel a bit of fade and then that too passes once cooled again. I have given these pads zero mechanical sympathy and the only thing they have thrown back is a little brake dust!
I cant wait to try out the Orangestuff, i understand that race compound pads are more to scrub off speed that bring the car to a stop but it is going to be good to test both Blue and Orange back to back and on the new High Carbon discs!
Do you know of any telemetry style hardware that one could use to in car to document my findings?
Have a good week mate
Guy
======================================
Then I get this Lotus result from one of the Northloop Ring testers
http://www.ebcbrakesblog.com/2011/10/ebc-bluestuff...
======================================
Greenstuff in its early days was OK for some markets and not for others, some people wanted it for low dust and in the USA we sold 300,000 sets of it since inception but back in Europe people wanted it to brake like glue on hatch hatches so the low dust aspects had to be engineered away to get the brakes people needed.
Redstuff is now in its SEVENTH formulation reblend and may change again, every time we get feedback or new ingredients come out we add them in to the blends and re test.
I dont see anything wrong with that.
Right now we are refining on Orange for full race use, some pretty good results on the GTR and EVO's but its early days and we are still field testing and looking for a 9/10 rating on this material due to the diversity of drivers and cars.
One such example with full data back up shown here
http://www.ebcbrakesblog.com/2011/09/ebc-orangestu...
Like I said Guys, I am interested to hear any and all comments, good or bad and YES in a way again this all is an EBC promotion because as the last British (and USA for our sintered range) Brake manufacturer we are pushing to progress and expand and improve all the time.
Anyone wanting to criticise that needs to go live somewhere else.
Cheers to all
I've commented in several threads since my post here^^ that I'm very happy with the Bluestuff pads I'm now running.
They're not easy to get hold of though - I had to contact ebcbrakesdirect directly for a part number and then have them made to order. For expectation management, are they likely to not be 'off-the-shelf' for a while?
They're not easy to get hold of though - I had to contact ebcbrakesdirect directly for a part number and then have them made to order. For expectation management, are they likely to not be 'off-the-shelf' for a while?
I did this to my discs with Green Stuff, which to be fair perform fairly well for the abuse they get. I can't get yellows or reds for my car (Renault 21 Quadra with factory 285mm front discs).
Quite worrying
(Discs were NOT EBC btw), you can just see the hundreds of small heat fractures (and some big ones!). They did stand for a while before changing too, hence them being a bit scruffy.
Yikes! How it didnt break in half I'll never know!
Am now upgrading to 330mm discs with 4-pots and yellow stuff pads.
Quite worrying
(Discs were NOT EBC btw), you can just see the hundreds of small heat fractures (and some big ones!). They did stand for a while before changing too, hence them being a bit scruffy.Yikes! How it didnt break in half I'll never know!
Am now upgrading to 330mm discs with 4-pots and yellow stuff pads.
I ran the Yellows kindly provided by Andy for a while. I think I posted my thoughts back in this thread a while ago.
Really, the Yellows were too good for my use, so I never got them up to heat properly. They were OK when cold, no better or worse then the Apec pads I normally use.
However, even with my limited use on a low performance car, the yellow paint burnt off, and the thickness of the paint also made the pads jam up in the front calipers. I ended up having to file the pads to get them to not jam. On the rears the Yellows were totally unsuitable, it was impossible to get any heat on them. I don't see how they would even on a track, as the rear brakes on the Mondeo are pretty feeble and don't do much at all.
Really, the Yellows were too good for my use, so I never got them up to heat properly. They were OK when cold, no better or worse then the Apec pads I normally use.
However, even with my limited use on a low performance car, the yellow paint burnt off, and the thickness of the paint also made the pads jam up in the front calipers. I ended up having to file the pads to get them to not jam. On the rears the Yellows were totally unsuitable, it was impossible to get any heat on them. I don't see how they would even on a track, as the rear brakes on the Mondeo are pretty feeble and don't do much at all.
This is what really scares me about EBC brakes. It's not just the pads that are the problem, its the interaction with the disc that they just don't understand.
Those pictures of your cracked discs just illustrate it perfectly.
Pagid RS14's, yes expensive, but you won't be buying new discs for a very long time, even low quality discs at that.
Those pictures of your cracked discs just illustrate it perfectly.
Pagid RS14's, yes expensive, but you won't be buying new discs for a very long time, even low quality discs at that.
windy1 said:
This is what really scares me about EBC brakes. It's not just the pads that are the problem, its the interaction with the disc that they just don't understand.
Those pictures of your cracked discs just illustrate it perfectly.
Pagid RS14's, yes expensive, but you won't be buying new discs for a very long time, even low quality discs at that.
Please explain why you believe EBC pads cause disc cracking more than other brands. A proper explanation, not wishy washy hand waving.Those pictures of your cracked discs just illustrate it perfectly.
Pagid RS14's, yes expensive, but you won't be buying new discs for a very long time, even low quality discs at that.
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