Winter tyres vol 2
Discussion
DailyHack said:
4 degrees this morning, my winters came alive! Shame its 20 degrees on weekend. This weather!
Why not use all-season tyres? E.g. Michelin CrossClimate or these:Davie said:
Still running Vredestein Quatrac 5's come rain, hail or sun and they're pretty much the perfect tyre for the climate I reckon...
tjlees said:
mybrainhurts said:
The problem is not wear, it's higher temperatures rendering them less effective later in snow.
How so?All the articles I've read from tyre manufacturers talk about increased wear and less grip in summer and possibly uneven wear.
That's the theory aiui that is being extended into winter tyres, but remember racing is monitoring changes with very small margins. I'm not particularly sure that the changes are so pronounced as to be noticeable in the conditions we are considering here. What I'm suggesting is that you may notice in timed laps on a frozen lake, but as for whether it makes an adverse difference on whether you get up a hill and can still smugly drive round numpty in his Audi Q7 on 21" rims and rubber band semi slicks, then perhaps not so much.
Of course the tyre boffins will say, yes it does make a difference if they want to push you down the route of two sets of wheels and tyres, but if they'd want to sell you some all seasons then they are going to say , no that's taken care of in the compound chemistry. Cynical? Moi?
Edited for fit fanger speeling errors
FiF said:
I think what mbh is talking about is a extension of the theory of heat cycling for competition tyres. Theory says that as manufactured within the compound there are strong bonds and weak bonds, if you put the tyre through a moderate heat cycle due to deflection the bonds break down with the heat, then if you leave the tyre to cool down and not use it for 24 hours, those bonds reform, and there are more of the stronger bonds. This means, for the competition tyre, then the tread /compound is more stable and wears better.
That's the theory aiui that is being extended into winter tyres, but remember racing is monitoring changes with very small margins. I'm not particularly sure that the changes are so pronounced as to be noticeable in the conditions we are considering here. What I'm suggesting is that you may notice in timed laps on a frozen lake, but as for whether it makes an adverse difference on whether you get up a hill and can still smugly drive round numpty in his Audi Q7 on 21" rims and rubber band semi slicks, then perhaps not so much.
Of course the tyre boffins will say, yes it does make a difference if they want to push you down the route of two sets of wheels and tyres, but if they'd want to sell you some all seasons then they are going to say , no that's taken care of in the compound chemistry. Cynical? Moi?
Ok understand ... so ...That's the theory aiui that is being extended into winter tyres, but remember racing is monitoring changes with very small margins. I'm not particularly sure that the changes are so pronounced as to be noticeable in the conditions we are considering here. What I'm suggesting is that you may notice in timed laps on a frozen lake, but as for whether it makes an adverse difference on whether you get up a hill and can still smugly drive round numpty in his Audi Q7 on 21" rims and rubber band semi slicks, then perhaps not so much.
Of course the tyre boffins will say, yes it does make a difference if they want to push you down the route of two sets of wheels and tyres, but if they'd want to sell you some all seasons then they are going to say , no that's taken care of in the compound chemistry. Cynical? Moi?
On the Track
Heat cycling can be done by installing tires on the car and running 10 to 15 minutes on a racetrack. Start with easy laps, and build up speed as the session continues. End up running 5-10 seconds off your normal pace and be careful not to spike the tire temperatures by spinning, sliding or locking the tires.
An important step in tire heat cycling is that after being brought up to temperature, the tires require a minimum of 24 hours to relax and relink the bonds between the rubber molecules. Drivers attempting to heat cycle tires in the morning for use a few hours later in the afternoon will not experience any benefits from the morning attempt at heat cycling. Heat cycling tires on Saturday means not using them again until the same time on Sunday.
tjlees said:
FiF said:
I think what mbh is talking about is a extension of the theory of heat cycling for competition tyres. Theory says that as manufactured within the compound there are strong bonds and weak bonds, if you put the tyre through a moderate heat cycle due to deflection the bonds break down with the heat, then if you leave the tyre to cool down and not use it for 24 hours, those bonds reform, and there are more of the stronger bonds. This means, for the competition tyre, then the tread /compound is more stable and wears better.
That's the theory aiui that is being extended into winter tyres, but remember racing is monitoring changes with very small margins. I'm not particularly sure that the changes are so pronounced as to be noticeable in the conditions we are considering here. What I'm suggesting is that you may notice in timed laps on a frozen lake, but as for whether it makes an adverse difference on whether you get up a hill and can still smugly drive round numpty in his Audi Q7 on 21" rims and rubber band semi slicks, then perhaps not so much.
Of course the tyre boffins will say, yes it does make a difference if they want to push you down the route of two sets of wheels and tyres, but if they'd want to sell you some all seasons then they are going to say , no that's taken care of in the compound chemistry. Cynical? Moi?
Ok understand ... so ...That's the theory aiui that is being extended into winter tyres, but remember racing is monitoring changes with very small margins. I'm not particularly sure that the changes are so pronounced as to be noticeable in the conditions we are considering here. What I'm suggesting is that you may notice in timed laps on a frozen lake, but as for whether it makes an adverse difference on whether you get up a hill and can still smugly drive round numpty in his Audi Q7 on 21" rims and rubber band semi slicks, then perhaps not so much.
Of course the tyre boffins will say, yes it does make a difference if they want to push you down the route of two sets of wheels and tyres, but if they'd want to sell you some all seasons then they are going to say , no that's taken care of in the compound chemistry. Cynical? Moi?
On the Track
Heat cycling can be done by installing tires on the car and running 10 to 15 minutes on a racetrack. Start with easy laps, and build up speed as the session continues. End up running 5-10 seconds off your normal pace and be careful not to spike the tire temperatures by spinning, sliding or locking the tires.
An important step in tire heat cycling is that after being brought up to temperature, the tires require a minimum of 24 hours to relax and relink the bonds between the rubber molecules. Drivers attempting to heat cycle tires in the morning for use a few hours later in the afternoon will not experience any benefits from the morning attempt at heat cycling. Heat cycling tires on Saturday means not using them again until the same time on Sunday.
Now let's apply the same to winters.
You have hypothetical situation, two drivers, identical vehicles, similar usage patterns, don't do mega miles, don't do track days etc, just Mr Average.
Both put new sets of winters in mid November, A takes them off mid March, say, B keeps his on through the summer. Next winter will B get the same performance out of his tyres as A?
Obviously he will not, no chance. What has had the biggest effect
a) numerous heat cycles
b) block edges being slightly less sharp, or
c) there is simply less tread depth due to 8,000 miles of extra use.
I know which it is. It's like amateur racers complaining of a poor performance later on the season as their tyres have lost grip due to "too many heat cycles and gone hard". Balls, it's because the tyres are worn out with little tread.
FiF said:
Yep that is the theory for competition.
Now let's apply the same to winters.
You have hypothetical situation, two drivers, identical vehicles, similar usage patterns, don't do mega miles, don't do track days etc, just Mr Average.
Both put new sets of winters in mid November, A takes them off mid March, say, B keeps his on through the summer. Next winter will B get the same performance out of his tyres as A?
Obviously he will not, no chance. What has had the biggest effect
a) numerous heat cycles
b) block edges being slightly less sharp, or
c) there is simply less tread depth due to 8,000 miles of extra use.
I know which it is. It's like amateur racers complaining of a poor performance later on the season as their tyres have lost grip due to "too many heat cycles and gone hard". Balls, it's because the tyres are worn out with little tread.
Now let's apply the same to winters.
You have hypothetical situation, two drivers, identical vehicles, similar usage patterns, don't do mega miles, don't do track days etc, just Mr Average.
Both put new sets of winters in mid November, A takes them off mid March, say, B keeps his on through the summer. Next winter will B get the same performance out of his tyres as A?
Obviously he will not, no chance. What has had the biggest effect
a) numerous heat cycles
b) block edges being slightly less sharp, or
c) there is simply less tread depth due to 8,000 miles of extra use.
I know which it is. It's like amateur racers complaining of a poor performance later on the season as their tyres have lost grip due to "too many heat cycles and gone hard". Balls, it's because the tyres are worn out with little tread.
If your winters are still above 4mm after Summer then you will still have enough grip for snow. If mine are at 4mm or below after winter I usually leave them on for summer until 2mm.
FiF said:
I know which it is. It's like amateur racers complaining of a poor performance later on the season as their tyres have lost grip due to "too many heat cycles and gone hard". Balls, it's because the tyres are worn out with little tread.
That's a myth is it? Re: winters, If you remove them for the Sumer, they'll have more tread and a better wear pattern for the following winter... Heat cycles aren't such a big deal with today's high silica compounds, but as a bonus you will have enjoyed better performance all round through the summer on summer tyres. Win-win-win.
Re above two posts. That's the point, any effect of eg heat cycles is miniscule compared to other factors, principally tread depth. Yet out there you still get the "use them on a summer day and they are irretrievably knackered" twaddle trotted out.
In terms on absolute aggregate best performance throughout the seasons, then clearly having two sets is better, but in reality it's up to individuals to make up their own minds based on their own situation using reliable information and not bad one liner comments.
Although I still think mybrainhurts was mainly just on a windup.
In terms on absolute aggregate best performance throughout the seasons, then clearly having two sets is better, but in reality it's up to individuals to make up their own minds based on their own situation using reliable information and not bad one liner comments.
Although I still think mybrainhurts was mainly just on a windup.
Here's something I've been theorising for the past few years pretty much confirmed, the Continental WinterContact TS8X0 is the best winter-bias all season tyre on the market.
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2017-All-Seas...
I'd still take the CrossClimates for the UK though.
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2017-All-Seas...
I'd still take the CrossClimates for the UK though.
FiF said:
Re above two posts. That's the point, any effect of eg heat cycles is miniscule compared to other factors, principally tread depth. Yet out there you still get the "use them on a summer day and they are irretrievably knackered" twaddle trotted out.
I’ve raced on List 1A tyres (Yokohama A539) and now 1B tyres (Yokohama A048r). both are control tyres so we had to use them wet and dry. Both tyres were at their best in the wet almost immediately, all the better if you had the luxury of a wet test session just to take the shine off them. Brand new tyres for wet, which would then become my dry tyres when my previous set of dry tyres wore out. What you don’t want to do is take a tyre which has been used in the dry and use it in the wet. Once they get hot, you knock the edges off the tread pattern, you saw tooth them, you get buildup sticking to them, the surface becomes rough and dimpled and the rubber increasingly cures. Tread depth was not a concern as aquaplaning isn’t a problem on either tyre. Tread depth does help with heat generation and retention too of course. IMO the biggest performance differentiator in the wet between a new tyre vs a tyre which has been used in the dry is wear pattern- the roughness, sawtoothing, rounded edges. Rubber hardening is possible factor number two which is why the serious folk have pyrometers and durometers.
jon- said:
Here's something I've been theorising for the past few years pretty much confirmed, the Continental WinterContact TS8X0 is the best winter-bias all season tyre on the market.
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2017-All-Seas...
I'd still take the CrossClimates for the UK though.
interesting to note that snow braking on the conti is shade over 21m v 23m for CrossClimates and CrossClimates are almost the worst result in snow handling. The best for dry braking and handling though http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2017-All-Seas...
I'd still take the CrossClimates for the UK though.
I have a set of 295-35-21 Continental Extreme contacts DWS06 on my car.
I do not think they are available in the UK though. I have been very happy with the dry and wet performance so far. They replaced a set of Summer focused tyres which in just damp conditions I could wheel spin into 5th with very little provocation. The contis have demonstrated good enough performance in dry even when pushed and the wet performance is excellent. We shall see how good the snow performance later this year. My previous set had zero traction if the road was covered. I hope this set will get me through the Winter. If not, I will fall back on my Wife's Tiguan 4motion that embarrasses all big SUVs with it's all season Michelins. I suspect this is a function of the narrow wheels though which leads me to still be concerned about my car until it proves me wrong.
I do not think they are available in the UK though. I have been very happy with the dry and wet performance so far. They replaced a set of Summer focused tyres which in just damp conditions I could wheel spin into 5th with very little provocation. The contis have demonstrated good enough performance in dry even when pushed and the wet performance is excellent. We shall see how good the snow performance later this year. My previous set had zero traction if the road was covered. I hope this set will get me through the Winter. If not, I will fall back on my Wife's Tiguan 4motion that embarrasses all big SUVs with it's all season Michelins. I suspect this is a function of the narrow wheels though which leads me to still be concerned about my car until it proves me wrong.
Looking for a bit of advice from those in the South of the UK...
I currently have Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2s fitted to my car which whilst great, aren't likely going to be suitable for November through to February. As such, I've decided to look at a new set of tyres however I can't decide whether it's worthwhile going for something like a Pilot Alpin PA4 over the Pilot Sport 4S.
(The Cup 2s will be refitted in March as they've worn evenly and all tyres still have >3mm tread.)
I ran a set of Pilot Super Sports through winter last year and they performed well so I'm leaning towards the 4S however I wouldn't want the 4S to perform any worse than the SS.
My question therefore is how those of you who run winter tyres in the never-very-extreme part of the UK get on with them?
I currently have Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2s fitted to my car which whilst great, aren't likely going to be suitable for November through to February. As such, I've decided to look at a new set of tyres however I can't decide whether it's worthwhile going for something like a Pilot Alpin PA4 over the Pilot Sport 4S.
(The Cup 2s will be refitted in March as they've worn evenly and all tyres still have >3mm tread.)
I ran a set of Pilot Super Sports through winter last year and they performed well so I'm leaning towards the 4S however I wouldn't want the 4S to perform any worse than the SS.
My question therefore is how those of you who run winter tyres in the never-very-extreme part of the UK get on with them?
Edited by MrBarry123 on Monday 9th October 12:34
I have got a set of winter wheels and tyres, Dunlop Winter Sport 4D that I got on eBay and fitted over last winter.
They never let me down in any snow or ice in my Scottish ice climbing trips but in the dry and above about 8 degrees they felt very poor with noticeably less grip than my summers.
I'm wondering if this is down to The smaller diameter wheel, softer sidewall and slimmer profile than my summers or more to do with the age of the tyres (2012 manufactured)
Summer = 225/40/18
Winter = 205/50/17
My summer fronts are coming up due for replacement and I'm torn between putting new rubber on or putting on my winter set when I clocks go back (they are ugly but I can litterally never see the car in daylight for months at this time of year)
They never let me down in any snow or ice in my Scottish ice climbing trips but in the dry and above about 8 degrees they felt very poor with noticeably less grip than my summers.
I'm wondering if this is down to The smaller diameter wheel, softer sidewall and slimmer profile than my summers or more to do with the age of the tyres (2012 manufactured)
Summer = 225/40/18
Winter = 205/50/17
My summer fronts are coming up due for replacement and I'm torn between putting new rubber on or putting on my winter set when I clocks go back (they are ugly but I can litterally never see the car in daylight for months at this time of year)
I've got a bit of a dilemma that maybe some of you knowledgeable tyre enthusiasts can assist with
I need a set of tyres pretty much immediately for the WRX STI daily. Now, I've just seen on ebay a set of wheels that are exactly what I want for the track car but wearing Michelin Alpins with about 7mm on them and they are the correct size to throw on the daily.
The question is, would I get away with them going on when it's still so warm or would they be shredded by the time the cold arrives? It would be a no brainer otherwise.
I need a set of tyres pretty much immediately for the WRX STI daily. Now, I've just seen on ebay a set of wheels that are exactly what I want for the track car but wearing Michelin Alpins with about 7mm on them and they are the correct size to throw on the daily.
The question is, would I get away with them going on when it's still so warm or would they be shredded by the time the cold arrives? It would be a no brainer otherwise.
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