Cheap v expensive tyres

[V8RX7]

You could of course read some tyre tests and discover that some of the mid range tyres out perform some of the premium brands

It depends what you're looking for:

Wet / Dry Grip
Feedback
Wet / Dry Braking
Longevity
Noise

No tyre is the best at everything

[r11co]

The Groundhog Day PH thread. No matter how much Phil tries to move things on the same people trot out the same old cliches.

Two decades ago Bridgestone Tyres were being derided as 'lethal' by bikers who swore by their traditional British brands. A decade later their British brands are owned by the Japanese and Bridgestone are line fit on Ferraris.

A decade ago Hankook and Kumho were having fun poked at them by PH'rs for having silly names and now they are specced on halo models.

Fast-forward to last year and Linglong gain approval for OEM fit to Volkwagen.

The nit-pickers will be along shortly to shore up the argument that the big brands they know and grew up with will always be better than the upstarts from far-off lands.....

[jagnet]

r11co said:

Fast-forward to last year and Linglong gain approval for OEM fit to Volkwagen.

Linglong Tire co. Ltd passed an audit to evaluate its suitability as an original equipment supplier and in doing so comes one step closer to having its tyres fitted on Volkswagen vehicles manufactured in China.

r11co said:

The nit-pickers will be along shortly to shore up the argument that the big brands they know and grew up that spend millions on R&D with will always be better than the upstarts from far-off lands ones that don't

I don't think anybody denies that any tyre manufacturer no matter where they're based are capable of growing and developing to the point that they can compete with the established premium brands. However, until they do, and whilst the tyres remain poor in comparison, people will judge them to be inferior.

[kambites]

How do you know the Chinese companies are spending less on R&D than Michelin etc?

[jagnet]

kambites said:

How do you know the Chinese companies are spending less on R&D than Michelin etc?

If they're not then they're not spending it well, as Michelin tyres are still superior, unless anyone can point me to a few test results that suggest otherwise.

[kambites]

jagnet said:

kambites said:

How do you know the Chinese companies are spending less on R&D than Michelin etc?

If they're not then they're not spending it well, as Michelin tyres are still superior, unless anyone can point me to a few test results that suggest otherwise.

I made no comment on whether they were better or worst, I was just interested in what evidence you had for your claim.

[RobM77]

kambites said:

jagnet said:

kambites said:

How do you know the Chinese companies are spending less on R&D than Michelin etc?

If they're not then they're not spending it well, as Michelin tyres are still superior, unless anyone can point me to a few test results that suggest otherwise.

I made no comment on whether they were better or worst, I was just interested in what evidence you had for your claim.

Here are the R&D budgets:

http://www.european-rubber-journal.com/2017/01/23/...

And this may be of interest too:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/225677/revenue...

[SG167]

I have recently upgraded from "budget" tyres to Michelin Latitude 3s, and the difference is quite noticeable - feels much more sure footed, less road noise and during recent bad weather has a decent step up in grip.

I wouldnt put a premium on a tyre because of the brand, but a well reviewed and tested tyre is worth a premium over a cheaper less good one - in my opinion.

[kambites]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of the companies listed there are Chinese?

That second link is fascinating in that despite China being the biggest car market in the world (I think?), no Chinese tyre companies are on that list. Do the Chinese not fit Chinese tyres to their cars? Or is it that there's so many different Chinese companies that none of the individually is huge?

[r11co]

jagnet said:

r11co said:

Fast-forward to last year and Linglong gain approval for OEM fit to Volkwagen.

Linglong Tire co. Ltd passed an audit to evaluate its suitability as an original equipment supplier and in doing so comes one step closer to having its tyres fitted on Volkswagen vehicles manufactured in China.

r11co said:

The nit-pickers will be along shortly to shore up the argument that the big brands they know and grew up that spend millions on R&D with will always be better than the upstarts from far-off lands ones that don't

I don't think anybody denies that any tyre manufacturer no matter where they're based are capable of growing and developing to the point that they can compete with the established premium brands. However, until they do, and whilst the tyres remain poor in comparison, people will judge them to be inferior.

Your need to edit my posts proves that my point is sage. Things are moving on but old attitudes will always die hard. Some people will judge them as inferior long after they have passed a point where they are competitive. Some people will do so even when they have reached class-leading status.

Bridgestone, Yokohama, Hankook, Kumho, Nexen - all once considered 'ditchfinders' (or whatever the mocking name of the day was).

Linglong - stupid name and Chinese so will always be judged on that criteria before others, and that a major manufacturer considers them good enough to be considered OEM will still be scrutinised for cynical reasons.

It was a long time ago on here that I broke the shock news to disbelievers that Hankook had just been approved for OEM use by Mercedes and Kumho had made it to the production lines of Golfs. Back then people said similar things that you just did.

But as I said, we've done this over and over again.

Edited by r11co on Thursday 14th December 11:25

[underphil]

Expensive tyres are better, but it's worth noting that the quality and performance of tyres in general has improved greatly over the last 20-30 years

A 2017 'ditchfinder' may well outperform some 'premium brand' tyres from the 90s - but back then no one said they were dangerous & irresponsible to use

[r11co]

underphil said:

A 2017 'ditchfinder' may well outperform some 'premium brand' tyres from the 90s - but back then no one said they were dangerous & irresponsible to use

I've made the point before dozens of times that I'd rather be sharing the roads with someone who has put a new set of off-brand tyres on their car than is eking the last out of their age-hardened and on-the-legal-limit tread depth premiums, especially at this time of year.

[Herbs]

r11co said:

underphil said:

A 2017 'ditchfinder' may well outperform some 'premium brand' tyres from the 90s - but back then no one said they were dangerous & irresponsible to use

:yesyes:

I've made the point before dozens of times that I'd rather be sharing the roads with someone who has put a new set of off-brand tyres on their car than is eking the last out of their age-hardened and on-the-legal-limit tread depth premiums, especially at this time of year.

Yes, but what about the people who are eking the last out of the age hardened and on the legal limit tread depth off brand ditch finders?

[fat80b]

r11co said:

But as I said, we've done this over and over again.

Good post - The power of Marketing in the Tyre world is high and always has been - whether it is motorsport or manufacturer led there seems to be a clear brand snobbery going on with the average tyre buyer - This says that a tyre company would be better off spending their dollars on brand marketing or bunging Mercedes a few quid and not R&D...

In many cases, the higher performance tyre in the range of a "lesser" brand will out perform a "premium" brand name but for some reason, the average tyre buyer only ever considers the brand name and not the actual tyre when considering which to purchase.

[MrBarry123]

I’m not sure you can read too much into Audi fitting Hankook tyres to their cars as the cars people keep referring to are Quattro models. This means whatever tyre is fitted to these cars immediately has an advantage in comparison with being fitted to FWD or RWD cars.

A clever idea from Hankook - and I’m sure Audi benefit handsomely - as it allows them to appear as premium as Michelin, Pirelli etc. and be associated with a similar level of performance.

[r11co]

MrBarry123 said:

I’m not sure you can read too much into Audi fitting Hankook tyres to their cars as the cars people keep referring to are Quattro models. This means whatever tyre is fitted to these cars immediately has an advantage in comparison with being fitted to FWD or RWD cars.

A clever idea from Hankook - and I’m sure Audi benefit handsomely - as it allows them to appear as premium as Michelin, Pirelli etc. and be associated with a similar level of performance.

So, how does that marry-up with Mercedes using them for RWD models?

[underphil]

RobM77 said:

Here are the R&D budgets:

http://www.european-rubber-journal.com/2017/01/23/...

And this may be of interest too:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/225677/revenue...

$ spend on R&D isn't a very useful metric when the cost of materials and labour can vary so greatly depending on geography

[Boobonman]

I did a track day in my MX5 at Brands Hatch Indy circuit a couple of weeks ago with some semi worn “Goodride” tyres. There’s no doubt that they weren’t offering the same levels of Grip as my friends cars shod with R888R’s but they were predictable, communicative, and after over 100 laps they weren’t significantly worn. Might even get another track day out of them.

[fido]

r11co said:

Two decades ago Bridgestone Tyres were being derided as 'lethal' by bikers who swore by their traditional British brands. A decade later their British brands are owned by the Japanese and Bridgestone are line fit on Ferraris.

Hardly representative of your average person if a few die-hard hairy bikers didn't like Japanese tyres? I always thought Bridgestone were reputable even if they weren't popular in the UK,

[otolith]

Crikey, our local ditchfinder evangelist took longer than usual to show up!