Newest tyres front or rear (RWD)?
Discussion
GC8 said:
Not this crock of sh*te again? New tyres to the rear is the most ill-thought out piece of advice Ive ever seen (given obviously, by touchy feely motoring organisations to those without the wit to know better). Your front wheels provide most of the cars braking effort and their wet grip whilst braking and through standing water is of paramount importance. The supposed arguement for placing new tyres on the rear is that thatll stop the car from oversteering..... Who subscribes to this crap; and who really thinks that this 'risk' is greater?
I'll tell you who subscribes to this "crap", touchy feely motoring organisations such asMichelin
Bridgestone
Goodyear
Pirelli
Continental
etc etc
They mainly think this up by doing hours and hours of tests at their various private test tracks round the world. They do all sorts of simulations and demos, from mixing tyres, over inflating them, putting tyres too wide for the rim on them etc etc. Only reason I know this is my father used to be in charge of Michelin's R&D department, I've seen some of the demos and trust me - new tyres go on the back. Anything else is just flat out dangerous.
Michelin, Pirelli, Dunlop, Bridgestone etc. all spend millions of pounds on R&D so personally I'd need a bloody compelling reason to ignore their advice.
As was explained to me by a test driver some years back when I asked him the question, if you get to the bottom line i.e. physics, dynamics, if you plant the front of a car be it by braking or cornering forces, the rear tries to move be it lifting-off or laterally, hence you want the most grip on the rears to keep them in contact with the road.
He did also point out that unless you're talking about wet conditions and/or running on 2 or more tyres that are near the limit there's arguably not that much in it on the average car.
As was explained to me by a test driver some years back when I asked him the question, if you get to the bottom line i.e. physics, dynamics, if you plant the front of a car be it by braking or cornering forces, the rear tries to move be it lifting-off or laterally, hence you want the most grip on the rears to keep them in contact with the road.
He did also point out that unless you're talking about wet conditions and/or running on 2 or more tyres that are near the limit there's arguably not that much in it on the average car.
B'stard Child said:
Flippin' Kipper said:
The two front tyres on my car badly need replacing, and I have two tyres on order to be fitted on Wednesday. My question is this, should I put my current rear tyres on the front of my car and the new tyres on the rear or just replace the front tyres with the new ones?
The car is RWD and the current rear tyres will need replacing in the next few months anyway.
Just me but regardles of if FWD or RWD I've always put newest tyres on the front (and rotated old fronts to rear is better than the ones removed) My logic has always been most of the braking is done on the front so if it's wet I want the best water clearing tread at that end......The car is RWD and the current rear tyres will need replacing in the next few months anyway.
But like I said thats just me
....and when he looks in here young Mark F will probably agree with you as well. It's nice to see that he occasionally agrees with me, and is therefore right.
Best wishes al,
Dave.
Deva Link said:
GC8 said:
If the tyres were adequate on the rear before, then theyre adequate still too: smething else thats often overlooked.
No. It's complicated and I don't fully understand it, but it changes the dynamics of the car.I know it seems odd, but driven at the same speed in the same conditions with worn tyres all round and then with new tyres on the front, the car will be more likely to oversteer with the new tyres. Same thing happens if you mess around with tyre pressures.
- You will need to be driving right at the limit to notice such things. Most people don't do that, day-to-day, just some of us reprobates...
- In the dry it will make little difference, and most cars are set-up to understeer anyway (even BMW's and MX-5's!), so dialling-out a LITTLE bit of that understeer is a good thing.
- In the wet, if standing water, what's been said several times on here about the importance of the front tyres 'clearing a path' through the standing water for the rears becomes of paramount importance, over-and-above ALL other considerations!
- In the wet, if just a wet, greasy surface, THEN your argument holds water, but EVEN THEN the effect will be limited - a half-worn tyre just DOES NOT lose its effectiveness vs a new tyre, sorry to disappoint!
paddyhasneeds said:
He did also point out that unless you're talking about wet conditions and/or running on 2 or more tyres that are near the limit there's arguably not that much in it on the average car.
Exactly!bodhi said:
GC8 said:
Not this crock of sh*te again? New tyres to the rear is the most ill-thought out piece of advice Ive ever seen (given obviously, by touchy feely motoring organisations to those without the wit to know better). Your front wheels provide most of the cars braking effort and their wet grip whilst braking and through standing water is of paramount importance. The supposed arguement for placing new tyres on the rear is that thatll stop the car from oversteering..... Who subscribes to this crap; and who really thinks that this 'risk' is greater?
I'll tell you who subscribes to this "crap", touchy feely motoring organisations such asMichelin
Bridgestone
Goodyear
Pirelli
Continental
etc etc
They mainly think this up by doing hours and hours of tests at their various private test tracks round the world. They do all sorts of simulations and demos, from mixing tyres, over inflating them, putting tyres too wide for the rim on them etc etc. Only reason I know this is my father used to be in charge of Michelin's R&D department, I've seen some of the demos and trust me - new tyres go on the back. Anything else is just flat out dangerous.
havoc said:
Can I suggest that:-
- You will need to be driving right at the limit to notice such things.
If you drive within the limits then nothing will happen - the whole point is to cover the cases where the limit moves towards you, usually unexpectedly.- You will need to be driving right at the limit to notice such things.
havoc said:
a half-worn tyre just DOES NOT lose its effectiveness vs a new tyre, sorry to disappoint!
It does. You might think your tyres grip 100% but they don't - all tyres slip. Worn ones slip more than new ones. Hence the point that having new tyres on the front is more will result in oversteer earlier than if worn tyres are on the car all round.Edited by Deva Link on Tuesday 22 September 21:23
Deva Link said:
havoc said:
Can I suggest that:-
- You will need to be driving right at the limit to notice such things.
If you drive within the limits then nothing will happen - the whole point is to cover the cases where the limit moves towards you, usually unexpectedly.- You will need to be driving right at the limit to notice such things.
havoc said:
a half-worn tyre just DOES NOT lose its effectiveness vs a new tyre, sorry to disappoint!
It does. You might think your tyres grip 100% but they don't - all tyres slip. Worn ones slip more than new ones. Hence the point that having new tyres on the front is more will result in oversteer earlier than if worn tyres are on the car all round.Edited by Deva Link on Tuesday 22 September 21:23
Funk said:
bodhi said:
GC8 said:
Not this crock of sh*te again? New tyres to the rear is the most ill-thought out piece of advice Ive ever seen (given obviously, by touchy feely motoring organisations to those without the wit to know better). Your front wheels provide most of the cars braking effort and their wet grip whilst braking and through standing water is of paramount importance. The supposed arguement for placing new tyres on the rear is that thatll stop the car from oversteering..... Who subscribes to this crap; and who really thinks that this 'risk' is greater?
I'll tell you who subscribes to this "crap", touchy feely motoring organisations such asMichelin
Bridgestone
Goodyear
Pirelli
Continental
etc etc
They mainly think this up by doing hours and hours of tests at their various private test tracks round the world. They do all sorts of simulations and demos, from mixing tyres, over inflating them, putting tyres too wide for the rim on them etc etc. Only reason I know this is my father used to be in charge of Michelin's R&D department, I've seen some of the demos and trust me - new tyres go on the back. Anything else is just flat out dangerous.
ks. Stating new tyres should always go on the back is fine advice for the masses, but petrolheads and competant drivers should pass their own judgement based on the car and tyres. You may want to put new tyres on the front to dial out understeer, or the rears may already be of a similar compound and have decent tread left on them. You just need to be aware of how a car understeers and oversteers based on its current charataristic, including tyres.Olivera said:
Funk said:
bodhi said:
GC8 said:
Not this crock of sh*te again? New tyres to the rear is the most ill-thought out piece of advice Ive ever seen (given obviously, by touchy feely motoring organisations to those without the wit to know better). Your front wheels provide most of the cars braking effort and their wet grip whilst braking and through standing water is of paramount importance. The supposed arguement for placing new tyres on the rear is that thatll stop the car from oversteering..... Who subscribes to this crap; and who really thinks that this 'risk' is greater?
I'll tell you who subscribes to this "crap", touchy feely motoring organisations such asMichelin
Bridgestone
Goodyear
Pirelli
Continental
etc etc
They mainly think this up by doing hours and hours of tests at their various private test tracks round the world. They do all sorts of simulations and demos, from mixing tyres, over inflating them, putting tyres too wide for the rim on them etc etc. Only reason I know this is my father used to be in charge of Michelin's R&D department, I've seen some of the demos and trust me - new tyres go on the back. Anything else is just flat out dangerous.
ks. Stating new tyres should always go on the back is fine advice for the masses, but petrolheads and competant drivers should pass their own judgement based on the car and tyres. You may want to put new tyres on the front to dial out understeer, or the rears may already be of a similar compound and have decent tread left on them. You just need to be aware of how a car understeers and oversteers based on its current charataristic, including tyres.
Funk said:
Olivera said:
Funk said:
bodhi said:
GC8 said:
Not this crock of sh*te again? New tyres to the rear is the most ill-thought out piece of advice Ive ever seen (given obviously, by touchy feely motoring organisations to those without the wit to know better). Your front wheels provide most of the cars braking effort and their wet grip whilst braking and through standing water is of paramount importance. The supposed arguement for placing new tyres on the rear is that thatll stop the car from oversteering..... Who subscribes to this crap; and who really thinks that this 'risk' is greater?
I'll tell you who subscribes to this "crap", touchy feely motoring organisations such asMichelin
Bridgestone
Goodyear
Pirelli
Continental
etc etc
They mainly think this up by doing hours and hours of tests at their various private test tracks round the world. They do all sorts of simulations and demos, from mixing tyres, over inflating them, putting tyres too wide for the rim on them etc etc. Only reason I know this is my father used to be in charge of Michelin's R&D department, I've seen some of the demos and trust me - new tyres go on the back. Anything else is just flat out dangerous.
ks. Stating new tyres should always go on the back is fine advice for the masses, but petrolheads and competant drivers should pass their own judgement based on the car and tyres. You may want to put new tyres on the front to dial out understeer, or the rears may already be of a similar compound and have decent tread left on them. You just need to be aware of how a car understeers and oversteers based on its current charataristic, including tyres.Olivera said:
Funk said:
Olivera said:
Funk said:
bodhi said:
GC8 said:
Not this crock of sh*te again? New tyres to the rear is the most ill-thought out piece of advice Ive ever seen (given obviously, by touchy feely motoring organisations to those without the wit to know better). Your front wheels provide most of the cars braking effort and their wet grip whilst braking and through standing water is of paramount importance. The supposed arguement for placing new tyres on the rear is that thatll stop the car from oversteering..... Who subscribes to this crap; and who really thinks that this 'risk' is greater?
I'll tell you who subscribes to this "crap", touchy feely motoring organisations such asMichelin
Bridgestone
Goodyear
Pirelli
Continental
etc etc
They mainly think this up by doing hours and hours of tests at their various private test tracks round the world. They do all sorts of simulations and demos, from mixing tyres, over inflating them, putting tyres too wide for the rim on them etc etc. Only reason I know this is my father used to be in charge of Michelin's R&D department, I've seen some of the demos and trust me - new tyres go on the back. Anything else is just flat out dangerous.
ks. Stating new tyres should always go on the back is fine advice for the masses, but petrolheads and competant drivers should pass their own judgement based on the car and tyres. You may want to put new tyres on the front to dial out understeer, or the rears may already be of a similar compound and have decent tread left on them. You just need to be aware of how a car understeers and oversteers based on its current charataristic, including tyres.Besides, it's a moot point in my case - my tyres are different sizes front and rear, as well as being directional. They can't even be swapped left-to-right let alone front-to-rear.
Olivera said:
Total bks. Stating new tyres should always go on the back is fine advice for the masses, but petrolheads and competant drivers should pass their own judgement based on the car and tyres. You may want to put new tyres on the front to dial out understeer, or the rears may already be of a similar compound and have decent tread left on them. You just need to be aware of how a car understeers and oversteers based on its current charataristic, including tyres.
In fairness, I noticed quite a few competent drivers lose it completely in a Golf VR6 (hardly the most oversteery thing in the world) on a damp test track in France with worn tyres on the rear and new ones on the front. Did I say competent? I meant professional. ks. Stating new tyres should always go on the back is fine advice for the masses, but petrolheads and competant drivers should pass their own judgement based on the car and tyres. You may want to put new tyres on the front to dial out understeer, or the rears may already be of a similar compound and have decent tread left on them. You just need to be aware of how a car understeers and oversteers based on its current charataristic, including tyres.But then one of the biggest tyre companies in the world clearly knows less than your average keyboard warrior so there you go
Edited by bodhi on Tuesday 22 September 21:49
This advice to put new tyres on the back is realtively new IME. For many years it was standard to always stick them on the front.
However, I think I've solved the problem either way. Being a bit OCD especially with tyres I rotate my tyres every 5-6000 miles so they wear evenly and I then always put 4 on not 2. This is also necessary because I insist on having all 4 tyres the same so if I swapped 2 I would always have to keep the same brand. The other advantage is I always have 4 tyres of similar wear and tread depth meaning a more balanced car with no one end having a tyre advantage in terms of wet grip or aquaplaning etc.
However, I think I've solved the problem either way. Being a bit OCD especially with tyres I rotate my tyres every 5-6000 miles so they wear evenly and I then always put 4 on not 2. This is also necessary because I insist on having all 4 tyres the same so if I swapped 2 I would always have to keep the same brand. The other advantage is I always have 4 tyres of similar wear and tread depth meaning a more balanced car with no one end having a tyre advantage in terms of wet grip or aquaplaning etc.
bodhi said:
GC8 said:
Not this crock of sh*te again? New tyres to the rear is the most ill-thought out piece of advice Ive ever seen (given obviously, by touchy feely motoring organisations to those without the wit to know better). Your front wheels provide most of the cars braking effort and their wet grip whilst braking and through standing water is of paramount importance. The supposed arguement for placing new tyres on the rear is that thatll stop the car from oversteering..... Who subscribes to this crap; and who really thinks that this 'risk' is greater?
I'll tell you who subscribes to this "crap", touchy feely motoring organisations such asMichelin
Bridgestone
Goodyear
Pirelli
Continental
etc etc
They mainly think this up by doing hours and hours of tests at their various private test tracks round the world. They do all sorts of simulations and demos, from mixing tyres, over inflating them, putting tyres too wide for the rim on them etc etc. Only reason I know this is my father used to be in charge of Michelin's R&D department, I've seen some of the demos and trust me - new tyres go on the back. Anything else is just flat out dangerous.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Funk said:
Olivera said:
Funk said:
bodhi said:
GC8 said:
Not this crock of sh*te again? New tyres to the rear is the most ill-thought out piece of advice Ive ever seen (given obviously, by touchy feely motoring organisations to those without the wit to know better). Your front wheels provide most of the cars braking effort and their wet grip whilst braking and through standing water is of paramount importance. The supposed arguement for placing new tyres on the rear is that thatll stop the car from oversteering..... Who subscribes to this crap; and who really thinks that this 'risk' is greater?
I'll tell you who subscribes to this "crap", touchy feely motoring organisations such asMichelin
Bridgestone
Goodyear
Pirelli
Continental
etc etc
They mainly think this up by doing hours and hours of tests at their various private test tracks round the world. They do all sorts of simulations and demos, from mixing tyres, over inflating them, putting tyres too wide for the rim on them etc etc. Only reason I know this is my father used to be in charge of Michelin's R&D department, I've seen some of the demos and trust me - new tyres go on the back. Anything else is just flat out dangerous.
ks. Stating new tyres should always go on the back is fine advice for the masses, but petrolheads and competant drivers should pass their own judgement based on the car and tyres. You may want to put new tyres on the front to dial out understeer, or the rears may already be of a similar compound and have decent tread left on them. You just need to be aware of how a car understeers and oversteers based on its current charataristic, including tyres.Best wishes all,
Dave.
GravelBen said:
ETA: In the particular case of the OP I'd probably just bite the bullet and replace all four at the same time.
Yep, if one set or the other is that bad that you are concerned, then it sounds like all four are best swapped.Not something I have to worry about now, but in the past I just keep all of them above 3mm as much as I can, and new always on the front, and that was on a supposed 'oversteery' Peugeot 306, despite them always under steering and generally being pretty benign even with this 'dangerous' configuration
You'd have to be a cretin to even notice the negative issues imho, but the benefits of having the new ones on the front are huge when it comes to feel through the steering imho, and traction, which are more important more of the time to avoiding accidents/bad situations in the first place, rather than the 'too late damage limitation' benefits of having them on the rear!
All imho
Dave
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