Winter tyres vol 2

[superlightr]

yep- for sure. (grew up with Caterham 7's ) I dont drive it to lose grip even with summer tyres and am generally intune with whats happening. Wanted it more for the better braking potential (not that I plan to have to use it) espacially as entering winter/wet /cold and they needed changing - down to approx 2.5mm.

Appreciate the replies and words of caution.

[Bonefish Blues]

Sheepshanks said:

superlightr said:

Well aware of rear may be more prone to loose grip before the front but I dont hoon around in that car.

Are you the only person who drives it?

It’s fast wet bends where it’s most dodgy - the back can just let go. The physics is weird - it’s worse with very unmatched grippy tyres on the front than with 4 worn matching tyres.

I'd missed that earlier. I have personal experience and it can happen alarmingly quickly and unexpectedly.

[Gad-Westy]

superlightr said:

yep- for sure. (grew up with Caterham 7's ) I dont drive it to lose grip even with summer tyres and am generally intune with whats happening. Wanted it more for the better braking potential (not that I plan to have to use it) espacially as entering winter/wet /cold and they needed changing - down to approx 2.5mm.

Appreciate the replies and words of caution.

In the old days braking would be the worst case scenario with the backs locking up way before the fronts but I guess it will have EBD and certainly 4 channel ABS so I imagine that is less of a concern now. But for what it's worth, I'd strongly consider doing the rears as well. Appreciate that it's easy to spend someone else's money but you'll simply have no idea what the back of the car is up to and it will only take one minor misjudgement on a slippy surface to end in tears.

[FiF]

I was reminded some years back of the difference in grip one spring morning. Had changed back to summers, then on the way into office one morning when the temperature had dropped a little. Not freezing, single figures 4/5C ish. Entered a fast sweeping bend where unusually there was a damp patch for whatever reason, pace was something the winters would have shrugged off, summers clearly right on the edge, only a coped with moment, but a surprise. If had been on a mismatch between front and rear axles could and probably would have gone south fairly spectacularly.

[Downward]

FiF said:

I was reminded some years back of the difference in grip one spring morning. Had changed back to summers, then on the way into office one morning when the temperature had dropped a little. Not freezing, single figures 4/5C ish. Entered a fast sweeping bend where unusually there was a damp patch for whatever reason, pace was something the winters would have shrugged off, summers clearly right on the edge, only a coped with moment, but a surprise. If had been on a mismatch between front and rear axles could and probably would have gone south fairly spectacularly.

Interesting.
I’m still on summers, Commute is 40 miles over lanes through rural areas so I’ll leave home at 5 degrees and within 20 mins it’s down to 2 degrees. Lots of open fields and tree coverings and bends.

I haven’t switched to winters infact I haven’t driven a car with full winters. My 1 car I’ve had cross climates on now for 5 years but the winter beater is on summer tyres currently.

Looking at the weather maybe it’s time to go winters with rain and 5 degree temperatures at 7am.

I would have thought summers would handle better though and winters were to be used at a slower pace?

[Konan]

Trustmeimadoctor said:

I just looked at getting all seasons and can only find one brand in my size
Vredestein Quatrac Pro are they any good?

Ran the Quatrac 3 and then the 5 on a Yaris for maybe 10 years. Really good all rounders.

Summer at over 30 degrees they'd feel a little squidgy and complain if you were driving like a do-nut, but still gripped fine. They replaced a set of Nankang NS2 that came with the car and eclipsed them in wet conditions.

Got caught out in a snow dump of a few inches one year and ended up on some very hilly back roads trying to get home. It was the only car moving off uphill without anyone pushing it.

[Trustmeimadoctor]

might move the e class onto them then when the f1 asymetric 6's expire then

[FiF]

Downward said:

FiF said:

I was reminded some years back of the difference in grip one spring morning. Had changed back to summers, then on the way into office one morning when the temperature had dropped a little. Not freezing, single figures 4/5C ish. Entered a fast sweeping bend where unusually there was a damp patch for whatever reason, pace was something the winters would have shrugged off, summers clearly right on the edge, only a coped with moment, but a surprise. If had been on a mismatch between front and rear axles could and probably would have gone south fairly spectacularly.

Interesting.
I’m still on summers, Commute is 40 miles over lanes through rural areas so I’ll leave home at 5 degrees and within 20 mins it’s down to 2 degrees. Lots of open fields and tree coverings and bends.

I haven’t switched to winters infact I haven’t driven a car with full winters. My 1 car I’ve had cross climates on now for 5 years but the winter beater is on summer tyres currently.

Looking at the weather maybe it’s time to go winters with rain and 5 degree temperatures at 7am.

I would have thought summers would handle better though and winters were to be used at a slower pace?

To be completely open I was getting a fair old wiggle on, and relying a bit on that it had been nice spring weather and not cold enough for precautionary gritting by the council. But for a fraction of a second there was an unexpected

These days all weathers work just fine, I no longer go in places where going to proper winters provides a definite benefit.

Edited by FiF on Wednesday 15th November 17:17

[havoc]

Downward said:

I would have thought summers would handle better though and winters were to be used at a slower pace?

In consistent conditions, absolutely. It's where you don't know what you're going to find around the corner and where some of the road has warmed up in the sun while that in the shade is several degrees cooler (and damper/greasier).
(That said, unless you're in the hills where overnight temperatures have approached 0, I'd still expect a good set of summers to be better than a good set of winters)

Also, if it's a very 'summer' set of summer tyres, and you can't get temperature in them, then that's a different matter - there's a clear difference in cold/damp behaviour between the PS5's on the daily which seem to take everything short of snow and ice in their stride, and the Yoko AD08R's on the weekend toy, which definitely does understeer if you try to press on at this time of year.

[Konan]

havoc said:

In consistent conditions, absolutely. It's where you don't know what you're going to find around the corner and where some of the road has warmed up in the sun while that in the shade is several degrees cooler (and damper/greasier).
(That said, unless you're in the hills where overnight temperatures have approached 0, I'd still expect a good set of summers to be better than a good set of winters)

Also, if it's a very 'summer' set of summer tyres, and you can't get temperature in them, then that's a different matter - there's a clear difference in cold/damp behaviour between the PS5's on the daily which seem to take everything short of snow and ice in their stride, and the Yoko AD08R's on the weekend toy, which definitely does understeer if you try to press on at this time of year.

I did a track day at -6 on AD08 tyres. First time I'd experienced the 'frost line' for corners.

[E-bmw]

havoc said:

Downward said:

I would have thought summers would handle better though and winters were to be used at a slower pace?

In consistent conditions, absolutely. It's where you don't know what you're going to find around the corner and where some of the road has warmed up in the sun while that in the shade is several degrees cooler (and damper/greasier).
(That said, unless you're in the hills where overnight temperatures have approached 0, I'd still expect a good set of summers to be better than a good set of winters)

Also, if it's a very 'summer' set of summer tyres, and you can't get temperature in them, then that's a different matter - there's a clear difference in cold/damp behaviour between the PS5's on the daily which seem to take everything short of snow and ice in their stride, and the Yoko AD08R's on the weekend toy, which definitely does understeer if you try to press on at this time of year.

I was about to strongly disagree with you until you put the bit about temperature, but don't forget if you never get temperature into the tyres due to external temperatures/damp the winters will 100% out perform the summers.

I found it before on a car when I was just on the brink of fitting my winters and straight out of the drive I went round a very slightly damp roundabout & quite simply totally lit up both fronts due to temperature on my (then) good summers.

[5s Alive]

FiF said:

I was reminded some years back of the difference in grip one spring morning. Had changed back to summers, then on the way into office one morning when the temperature had dropped a little. Not freezing, single figures 4/5C ish. Entered a fast sweeping bend where unusually there was a damp patch for whatever reason, pace was something the winters would have shrugged off, summers clearly right on the edge, only a coped with moment, but a surprise. If had been on a mismatch between front and rear axles could and probably would have gone south fairly spectacularly.

I've often run winters up front (on fwd cars) with summers on the rear and only ever had one 'moment'. That was on a Prius, off throttle on regen down a fairly steep snow covered hill when the rear suddenly snapped out, after that it was full winters all round. Almost everyone else was completely stuck in the beast from the east.

All seasons have come on so far in recent years that they ought to be the default choice for everyday transport. We've recently put Hankook Kinergy 4S2's on our daughter's car and I'm impressed with their all round performance. Quiet too. I'll be driving as if on eggshells this winter until I fit a set of Goodyear Vector 4 seasons - the low rolling resistance Michelins on our Kona display a surprising lack of grip in winter conditions compared to similar sized tyres in the past.

[FiF]

5s Alive said:

I've often run winters up front (on fwd cars) with summers on the rear and only ever had one 'moment'. That was on a Prius, off throttle on regen down a fairly steep snow covered hill when the rear suddenly snapped out, after that it was full winters all round. Almost everyone else was completely stuck in the beast from the east.

All seasons have come on so far in recent years that they ought to be the default choice for everyday transport. We've recently put Hankook Kinergy 4S2's on our daughter's car and I'm impressed with their all round performance. Quiet too. I'll be driving as if on eggshells this winter until I fit a set of Goodyear Vector 4 seasons - the low rolling resistance Michelins on our Kona display a surprising lack of grip in winter conditions compared to similar sized tyres in the past.

Running those Goodyears now, really like them.

LoL at Prius, the only car I've ever got stuck driving down a snow covered hill. Completely bizarre situation.

[Bonefish Blues]

5s Alive said:

I've often run winters up front (on fwd cars) with summers on the rear and only ever had one 'moment'. That was on a Prius, off throttle on regen down a fairly steep snow covered hill when the rear suddenly snapped out, after that it was full winters all round. Almost everyone else was completely stuck in the beast from the east.

All seasons have come on so far in recent years that they ought to be the default choice for everyday transport. We've recently put Hankook Kinergy 4S2's on our daughter's car and I'm impressed with their all round performance. Quiet too. I'll be driving as if on eggshells this winter until I fit a set of Goodyear Vector 4 seasons - the low rolling resistance Michelins on our Kona display a surprising lack of grip in winter conditions compared to similar sized tyres in the past.

Those Hankooks are fine tyres - we've been running them for 3-4 years or so on the XC70 and never felt anything other than secure. Recently did some navigiation-deficient accidental green laning which was fine too.

[5s Alive]

FiF said:

Running those Goodyears now, really like them.

LoL at Prius, the only car I've ever got stuck driving down a snow covered hill. Completely bizarre situation.

Indeed! Regenerative braking on the Prius was nowhere near the level now applied by full EVs. I imagine that lifting off mid bend in low grip conditions, even at the lowest regen setting, has the potential to surprise a few people.

One pedal driving coming to a field near you...

[Sheepshanks]

5s Alive said:

Indeed! Regenerative braking on the Prius was nowhere near the level now applied by full EVs. I imagine that lifting off mid bend in low grip conditions, even at the lowest regen setting, has the potential to surprise a few people.

One pedal driving coming to a field near you...

Hmmm….I was a concerned about how RWD ID.3 would cope with winter conditions - maybe it’d be more benign than front wheel drive.

I wonder if ESP systems will accelerate a FWD electric car if they detect the back end breaking away? That could get interesting!

[Bonefish Blues]

I reckon they'll prove to be cleverer than a clever thing and be able to monitor stuff like that and avoid it. Things have moved on an awfully long way since my Prius was defeated by a bit of slush

[havoc]

Bonefish Blues said:

I reckon they'll prove to be cleverer than a clever thing and be able to monitor stuff like that and avoid it. Things have moved on an awfully long way since my Prius was defeated by a bit of slush

I wouldn't count on it.

- ESP systems everywhere are still driven by wheel-slip sensors, and yet in snow all the usual rules are turned on their head - slip is good (to a degree - cut slip too early and you go nowhere, get a little bit and you get snow in the treads which then (through magic or something) starts to bite against the snow still on the ground). But the chips can't distinguish between snow (allow slip) and dry/wet/icy (slip is bad). Actually, if it wasn't for all these 'sport' modes sharpening throttle response, you'd want the ESP set to a looser setting.

- Regen braking is a cornerstone of EV efficiency. How many people are going to remember to go into 3 submenus to dial regen right down when it snows? And again, how is the ECU going to know it's snow so regen braking is bad?


Unless you've winter tyres, the best on-road-biased vehicle for snow is going to be an old (!) Micra, 2CV etc. - narrow tyres, low-torque, manual gearbox, few driver aids to get in the way, linear long-travel throttle, front-wheel-drive (4wd would be better, before anyone shouts - maybe a Fiat Panda 4x4).


At some point in the future visual sensors (self-driving) will join the fray, and some boffin will be able to code some sort of map to distinguish snow, ice, etc. And that will be a major breakthrough. Right now we're in that weird in-between time where the cars are occasionally just clever enough to be a problem for us.

[Bonefish Blues]

Only one way to find out

Meanwhile I'll bimble along in the Panda 4x4 on Vred Quatrac 6s

[FiF]

Bonefish Blues said:

I reckon they'll prove to be cleverer than a clever thing and be able to monitor stuff like that and avoid it. Things have moved on an awfully long way since my Prius was defeated by a bit of slush

I suspect the early Prius issue was the control of the drive in that wheel slip resulted in drive being cut to the front wheels very early but only in fwd. Reverse was completely different.