Cheap v expensive tyres
Discussion
kambites said:
I'm not sure that even wet-weather racing tyres are actually produced like that though?
As far as I know, they're not, no, they're made just a normal road tyre, but with a much much softer compound. They last a similar time to slicks if used in appropriate weather (i.e. standing water), and if used in dry weather, especially warm, even less than that.crankedup said:
Just replaced the dreadful run flats on my e92 325i SE. The full designation of the model of my daily is relevant, the style of the car is perfect, the power is also just about right, manual gearbox is old World and lovely, suspension is more comfy an the ‘M Sport’ versions. As
I drive in a relative sedate manner the whole package is perfect for me, as are the tyres I chose to have fitted, Avon’s. Why would I need to spend twice the cash for tyres I simply would not get the best from.
As always it depends.I drive in a relative sedate manner the whole package is perfect for me, as are the tyres I chose to have fitted, Avon’s. Why would I need to spend twice the cash for tyres I simply would not get the best from.
I always ran my MX5 on Toyo T1R - the garage said they had them in but I ended up with a pair of T1R and a pair of Avons.
On the front there was massively reduced braking, no feel and understeer so I tried them on the back, it went sideways everywhere, all the time, it was ridiculous in the wet.
I sold them on Ebay within a month.
The worst tyres I've ever come across.
MrBarry123 said:
ETA: To clarify, I'm not saying that Hankooks are bad. My friend has a new S5 and he has Hankooks fitted. They're grippy and are wearing well however I think we can all agree that the Quattro system fitted to the car will flatter the capability of the tyres.
That is clutching at straws. What you are saying is that a car manufacturer would knowingly fit a sub-par tyre to their car because their engineering will compensate for the lesser performance?You are in denial - doggedly sticking to your own narrative rather than considering the more likely explanation that a brand you don't rate because it doesn't have the history of established brands is actually capable of bringing itself to the point of parity.
Edited by r11co on Thursday 14th December 17:15
kambites said:
Can you really not get hard slicks; by hard I mean as hard as the softest road-legal tyres?
Not that I've seen, no. I'm ready to be corrected on that, but I've just had a flick through Michelin's catalogue and they're all the sort of slicks I've seen and used before. Most teams in major championships (i.e. outside of club racing) put new tyres on for each session. I buy secondhand slicks for my car from those teams and they've normally got 60-100km on them when I get them - for them they're scrap at that point. For competitive use I then use a set for qual and a couple of races (about 45 minutes running time, or another 100-150km), then just about a day's testing before they get binned, although by lunchtime I'm getting fed up with them!r11co said:
That is clutching at straws. What you are saying is that a car manufacturer would knowingly fit a sub-par tyre to their car because their engineering will compensate for the lesser performance?
This is denial - failure to accept that a brand you don't rate because it doesn't have the history of established brands is capable of bringing itself to the point of parity because, well just because.
Well yes but you've made it sound rather dramatic. And sub-par is probably a bit harsh.This is denial - failure to accept that a brand you don't rate because it doesn't have the history of established brands is capable of bringing itself to the point of parity because, well just because.
ETA: What I'm actually saying is that Audi can afford to not fit the absolute best tyre option available because the Quattro system fitted to its cars will flatter the ability of a tyre more than a FWD or RWD car would.
Regardless, we'll agree to disagree.
Edited by MrBarry123 on Thursday 14th December 15:12
kambites said:
LMP cars apparently get around 350 miles out of a set of tyres at race pace so they're presumably a fair bit harder than you use on your single seater?
Yes, if the track temperature's the same then they would be harder, yes. I suspect that's the top of the scale of hardness, the bottom being a hillclimbing slick. I don't know of any comparable to a Yoko 48R though. The characteristics are also completely different - 48Rs work well straight away, whereas a racing slick doesn't really work until its warm.MrBarry123 said:
ETA: What I'm actually saying is that Audi can afford to not fit the absolute best tyre option available because the Quattro system fitted to its cars will flatter the ability of a tyre more than a FWD or RWD car would.
That is even more laughable a statement!Can't you just accept that maybe they don't consider their choice of OEM supplier inferior?
I suspect they have more knowledge of the product concerned than you do and don't judge it on the basis that the company originated from the Far East and has a name that people used to scoff at?
It just goes to prove my point that some people have brand prejudice that will never be broken down.
Edited by r11co on Thursday 14th December 15:33
r11co said:
MrBarry123 said:
ETA: What I'm actually saying is that Audi can afford to not fit the absolute best tyre option available because the Quattro system fitted to its cars will flatter the ability of a tyre more than a FWD or RWD car would.
That is even more laughable a statement!
Not least because Quattro matters the least in the areas where tyres matter the most: cornering and braking. Quattro is mostly about traction when accelerating (which is usually irrelevant to safety).Edited to add: I can't imagine anything less confidence inspiring than a powerful Audi Quattro on ditchfinders - it would mask any grip issues when accelerating, hurling you up the road at a decent lick, and then when you came to the first corner you'd just lock up and plough straight on into a hedge
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 14th December 15:37
MrBarry123 said:
What I'm actually saying is that Audi can afford to not fit the absolute best tyre option available because the Quattro system fitted to its cars will flatter the ability of a tyre more than a FWD or RWD car would.
Why on earth would they do that? Any saving in cost would be minimal for them, and if they have "better" tyres from another brand elsewhere in the range, no manufacturer is going to add more sources/suppliers for the fun of it.RobM77 said:
r11co said:
MrBarry123 said:
ETA: What I'm actually saying is that Audi can afford to not fit the absolute best tyre option available because the Quattro system fitted to its cars will flatter the ability of a tyre more than a FWD or RWD car would.
That is even more laughable a statement! Not least because Quattro matters the least in the areas where tyres matter the most: cornering and braking. Quattro is mostly about traction when accelerating (which is usually irrelevant to safety).Which will be why they fit the same tyres to many of their FWD models (because 4WD has f'all to do with it).
It is true that to the average driver quattro will / can give the appearance of more grip.
Also Hankooks offer 85% the performance for 50% the cost to the OEM. It's a cost saving excersize that is all. Hankooks are regarded well enough (and perform well enough) to stop people moaning.
Also Hankooks offer 85% the performance for 50% the cost to the OEM. It's a cost saving excersize that is all. Hankooks are regarded well enough (and perform well enough) to stop people moaning.
r11co said:
Can't you just accept that maybe they don't consider their choice of OEM supplier inferior?
You do realise that OEM suppliers are simply the ones who can fulfill the requirements at the cheapest price.Manufacturers are not trying to make the best car, they are trying to make the most profitable car
xjay1337 said:
It is true that to the average driver quattro will / can give the appearance of more grip.
Also Hankooks offer 85% the performance for 50% the cost to the OEM. It's a cost saving excersize that is all. Hankooks are regarded well enough (and perform well enough) to stop people moaning.
In my experience they offer 100% of the performance for 80% of the cost.Also Hankooks offer 85% the performance for 50% the cost to the OEM. It's a cost saving excersize that is all. Hankooks are regarded well enough (and perform well enough) to stop people moaning.
Why would Audi spend hundreds of thousands on the press launch of the new RS6 only to use inferior tyres which would save them all of a couple of grand?
None of the reviewers I have seen had any negatives about grip or tyres in general.
I’m not saying you’re going to fall off the road in your Hankook equipped Audi!
Specifying Hankook tyres on their cooking models, all of which are Quattro, allows them to safe cash without losing performance from areas where buyers would notice (because Quattro).
And just look at the tests. BMW and Mercedes are fitting their top-end cars with sets of Michelin Pilot Super Sport or 4 S tyres. In every test I’ve seen, these perform better than any Hankook tyre. Audi aren’t doing so because they’ve got a nice little deal with Hankook (fair enough) and because their Quattro setup mitigates some of the disadvantage.
Specifying Hankook tyres on their cooking models, all of which are Quattro, allows them to safe cash without losing performance from areas where buyers would notice (because Quattro).
And just look at the tests. BMW and Mercedes are fitting their top-end cars with sets of Michelin Pilot Super Sport or 4 S tyres. In every test I’ve seen, these perform better than any Hankook tyre. Audi aren’t doing so because they’ve got a nice little deal with Hankook (fair enough) and because their Quattro setup mitigates some of the disadvantage.
Edited by MrBarry123 on Thursday 14th December 16:50
KungFuPanda said:
Just bought a Cayenne that needs a couple of new tyres on the front. Size required is 275/40/20 so maybe similar to yours OP.
I’ve opted for Uniroyal Rainsport 3 at £115 delivered from Camskill. Top of the tree are Michelin Latitude which are around £190. Nexen Roadian can be had for around £85 and cheapest of the cheap budgets are HiFly at £57. Prices don’t include fitting but I have a tame mechanic who will fit for free.
The Nexens seem to have reasonable favourable reviews from the Range Rover Sport forums and are an option at some Land Rover dealers too. The only reason I didn’t opt for them was that some said the sidewalls were a bit thin.
My Rainsport 3's lasted just under 1 year and around 6/7k on the rear of my MX-5, I know I've a heavy right foot but that was just ridiculous. Hope yours last longerI’ve opted for Uniroyal Rainsport 3 at £115 delivered from Camskill. Top of the tree are Michelin Latitude which are around £190. Nexen Roadian can be had for around £85 and cheapest of the cheap budgets are HiFly at £57. Prices don’t include fitting but I have a tame mechanic who will fit for free.
The Nexens seem to have reasonable favourable reviews from the Range Rover Sport forums and are an option at some Land Rover dealers too. The only reason I didn’t opt for them was that some said the sidewalls were a bit thin.
MrBarry123 said:
....because their Quattro setup mitigates some of the disadvantage.
Except that it doesn't.Repeating an incorrect statement doesn't eventually make it correct. See the point above about traction when accelarating. Braking and cornering grip are both unaffected by four wheel drive, and your or anyone else's perception of it doesn't change that.
I bought some 215/55 16 Maxxis for my eldery 406 coupe at the suggestion of my local tyre supplier as he reckoned that they'd be fine - and indeed they are.
They grip very well in the dry, are wearing extremely well, give a very good ride and most importantly are very quiet.
I've had to switch wheels for a bit and I'm now on a set of Pirellis - which grip better in the wet but don't ride anything like as well and are considerably noisier.
They grip very well in the dry, are wearing extremely well, give a very good ride and most importantly are very quiet.
I've had to switch wheels for a bit and I'm now on a set of Pirellis - which grip better in the wet but don't ride anything like as well and are considerably noisier.
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