Lotus:- The End?
Discussion
Somebody on another thread claims that they know somebody who says project Fuji has been put on-hold until at least after Christmas, and that if it comes back it will be with different design parameters.
Ignoring for a moment the obvious question as to whether it would be better to have some sort of Esprit now rather than no Esprit for another 1-3 years, the question has to be this: what would people actually buy at a price and in such numbers from which Lotus could make a profit?
For my money, I'd go with a facelifted Evora. The newer variants seem to have become a little less 'challenging' in the looks department (although, for my money, the Alfa 4C is a lesson in how to sort those wretched air inlets out a little more elegantly). The range-extended technology shown recently looks promising. An Evora seems to me to offer much of the package of a classic 1980s/90s 911, but it needs to be more elegant, less fussy, and more characterful.
On the wider issue, Lotus has suffered for many years without a clear vision upon which hook to hang its wares. Sadly, for them, Bahar was the first to convince owners and investors to back such a vision, it just didn't seem - to me - an especially great one.
Maybe the guys at NEVS (who've bought the remains of Saab) should consider taking on Lotus, too, and building a dream team of lightweight engineering and EV tech?
Ignoring for a moment the obvious question as to whether it would be better to have some sort of Esprit now rather than no Esprit for another 1-3 years, the question has to be this: what would people actually buy at a price and in such numbers from which Lotus could make a profit?
For my money, I'd go with a facelifted Evora. The newer variants seem to have become a little less 'challenging' in the looks department (although, for my money, the Alfa 4C is a lesson in how to sort those wretched air inlets out a little more elegantly). The range-extended technology shown recently looks promising. An Evora seems to me to offer much of the package of a classic 1980s/90s 911, but it needs to be more elegant, less fussy, and more characterful.
On the wider issue, Lotus has suffered for many years without a clear vision upon which hook to hang its wares. Sadly, for them, Bahar was the first to convince owners and investors to back such a vision, it just didn't seem - to me - an especially great one.
Maybe the guys at NEVS (who've bought the remains of Saab) should consider taking on Lotus, too, and building a dream team of lightweight engineering and EV tech?
there was nothing wrong with basis of DB's vision just its implementation.
if you think that the dinosaur s2 or the evora that appeals only to the fan boys (who moan on forums its too expensive 2nd hand anyway) can maintain a car company going forward you need your head examined.
the next lot will look at new products as DB did or turn the co into another tvr/caterham. hardly an inspiring outlook to anyone else other than the beards with their heads in the sand and even they maybe put out if it turns into say a korean tvr/s2 elise asian printing press - that wont do anything for their residuals which seems to be their only concern - quelle horreur!!! lol
if you think that the dinosaur s2 or the evora that appeals only to the fan boys (who moan on forums its too expensive 2nd hand anyway) can maintain a car company going forward you need your head examined.
the next lot will look at new products as DB did or turn the co into another tvr/caterham. hardly an inspiring outlook to anyone else other than the beards with their heads in the sand and even they maybe put out if it turns into say a korean tvr/s2 elise asian printing press - that wont do anything for their residuals which seems to be their only concern - quelle horreur!!! lol
skwdenyer said:
On the wider issue, Lotus has suffered for many years without a clear vision upon which hook to hang its wares. Sadly, for them, Bahar was the first to convince owners and investors to back such a vision, it just didn't seem - to me - an especially great one.
Edited by bobo on Saturday 13th October 15:41
Agem said:
I like Exige V6, but why not a VW 2 litre Turbo?.........Massive weight reduction & DSG gearboxes....
Mike
It was done it was called a Europa S, with a 2 litre bomb proof Turbo Vauxhall engine, the nay-sayers on here criticised it and its price @ £35K so what makes you think a VW engine would make any difference Mike
Toaster said:
Agem said:
I like Exige V6, but why not a VW 2 litre Turbo?.........Massive weight reduction & DSG gearboxes....
Mike
It was done it was called a Europa S, with a 2 litre bomb proof Turbo Vauxhall engine, the nay-sayers on here criticised it and its price @ £35K so what makes you think a VW engine would make any difference Mike
perfectly decent car, looked OK, development paid for (by Proton), launched by lotus as a GT car and a stupid price tag when we all knew it was basically a VX with a nice body on it.
surprise surprise, it fails to sell.....
Scuffers said:
Europa was yet another classic example of Lotus management loosing the plot.
perfectly decent car, looked OK, development paid for (by Proton), launched by lotus as a GT car and a stupid price tag when we all knew it was basically a VX with a nice body on it.
surprise surprise, it fails to sell.....
And the price should have been .......perfectly decent car, looked OK, development paid for (by Proton), launched by lotus as a GT car and a stupid price tag when we all knew it was basically a VX with a nice body on it.
surprise surprise, it fails to sell.....
Scuffers I would have thought with all your experience and knowledge you should be snapped up as a lotus exec and everything would be correct and lots of sales made
Edited by Toaster on Sunday 14th October 15:40
Price was right if the standard car was sold w 300hp .... press w have hailed it as the first lotus to be genuinely far quicker then it's peers and it would have sold. hardly rocket svience. I would have had one.
Scuffers said:
~£25K (for the base model)
think about it, there are a lot of cars sub £35K that are more obvious choices
think about it, there are a lot of cars sub £35K that are more obvious choices
And how would they have managed that without spending more money on engine work? (that would have meant re-homologating the engine).
if you look up reviews of it at the time, Lotus were trying to get it compared to a Cayman (see a pattern here?)
Loonacy, but unfortunately, they did not learn from this and fell down exactly the same holes with the Evora, the only difference is the money and risk involved was/is enough to finish them off.
if you look up reviews of it at the time, Lotus were trying to get it compared to a Cayman (see a pattern here?)
Loonacy, but unfortunately, they did not learn from this and fell down exactly the same holes with the Evora, the only difference is the money and risk involved was/is enough to finish them off.
bobo said:
Price was right if the standard car was sold w 300hp .... press w have hailed it as the first lotus to be genuinely far quicker then it's peers and it would have sold. hardly rocket svience. I would have had one.
Scuffers said:
~£25K (for the base model)
think about it, there are a lot of cars sub £35K that are more obvious choices
think about it, there are a lot of cars sub £35K that are more obvious choices
It must have already been in development when the Cayman was launched, so I would think the press had the comparison more strongly in mind than Lotus did.
I understand why the Europa wasn't quicker, but I still think that's what Lotus need to do wherever their cars can conceivably go head to head on price with a Porsche - make sure they have enough performance to embarrass the German car, because they sure aren't going to get the badge or interior trim snobs.
I understand why the Europa wasn't quicker, but I still think that's what Lotus need to do wherever their cars can conceivably go head to head on price with a Porsche - make sure they have enough performance to embarrass the German car, because they sure aren't going to get the badge or interior trim snobs.
otolith said:
It must have already been in development when the Cayman was launched, so I would think the press had the comparison more strongly in mind than Lotus did.
I understand why the Europa wasn't quicker, but I still think that's what Lotus need to do wherever their cars can conceivably go head to head on price with a Porsche - make sure they have enough performance to embarrass the German car, because they sure aren't going to get the badge or interior trim snobs.
kind of missing the point, ie. DO NOT compare/go up against Porsche.I understand why the Europa wasn't quicker, but I still think that's what Lotus need to do wherever their cars can conceivably go head to head on price with a Porsche - make sure they have enough performance to embarrass the German car, because they sure aren't going to get the badge or interior trim snobs.
bobo said:
there was nothing wrong with basis of DB's vision just its implementation.
if you think that the dinosaur s2 or the evora that appeals only to the fan boys (who moan on forums its too expensive 2nd hand anyway) can maintain a car company going forward you need your head examined.
the next lot will look at new products as DB did or turn the co into another tvr/caterham. hardly an inspiring outlook to anyone else other than the beards with their heads in the sand and even they maybe put out if it turns into say a korean tvr/s2 elise asian printing press - that wont do anything for their residuals which seems to be their only concern - quelle horreur!!! lol
I don't think we're in disagreement. DB provided the implementation of the vision, and that doesn't seem to have been fantastic. But he was the first / only executive to persuade the relevant powers-that-be to support a vision, so he got his way.if you think that the dinosaur s2 or the evora that appeals only to the fan boys (who moan on forums its too expensive 2nd hand anyway) can maintain a car company going forward you need your head examined.
the next lot will look at new products as DB did or turn the co into another tvr/caterham. hardly an inspiring outlook to anyone else other than the beards with their heads in the sand and even they maybe put out if it turns into say a korean tvr/s2 elise asian printing press - that wont do anything for their residuals which seems to be their only concern - quelle horreur!!! lol
skwdenyer said:
On the wider issue, Lotus has suffered for many years without a clear vision upon which hook to hang its wares. Sadly, for them, Bahar was the first to convince owners and investors to back such a vision, it just didn't seem - to me - an especially great one.
Edited by bobo on Saturday 13th October 15:41
So much of what he tried to do was 'right' IMHO, such as:
- a new design direction - the old approach was tired and not world-class (just a shame about the new direction IMHO);
- investment in new production facilities (but perhaps some new product would have been better, first);
- a move upmarket - the task may be greater, but the rewards are greater, the profile higher and, in the current economic climate, the market more friendly;
- a move to GT cars - like or not, those with money also often have children and limited parking.
Porsche sell cars to people who drive them every day. Lotus do not. Where is the volume market? Even Aston Martin realised that; they may be imperfect, but they're a hell of a lot closer to remaining alive than Lotus.
TBH, if startups like Fisker or Tesla can move to producing 'clever' 4-door cars, I don't understand why Lotus, with all of their development infrastructure, cannot. But they haven't, they didn't, and here we are.
I didn't realise just how bad things were for Lotus - £29k for a base Elise. No wonder they're struggling. I'd assumed (stupidly, it seems) they'd be around £22k-ish.
I did some comparisons - a 2.0 MX5 in the top cabrio spec. can be had for £18k and a GT86 is £25k.
You'd have to be particularly enthusiastic about owning a Lotus to spend that extra money over 2 cars which offer 80-90% of the experience, 100% more practicality and probably more reliability for a lot less money.
I did some comparisons - a 2.0 MX5 in the top cabrio spec. can be had for £18k and a GT86 is £25k.
You'd have to be particularly enthusiastic about owning a Lotus to spend that extra money over 2 cars which offer 80-90% of the experience, 100% more practicality and probably more reliability for a lot less money.
well if it did have 300 bhp it wouldn't have been up against a comparative entry level porsche and i would have quite possibly sold my then 911 to get one ... which was my point.
the exige v6 (not a cheap car - relative to peers) with a bolt on SC (so it is possible to reconfig engines) deposit book was filled on headline numbers alone - hardly anyone has seen it or driven it, a first for lotus since the s1. headline numbers sell cars.
imo the europa, a good little car, could have achieved far better sales on headline numbers if it could have made them - relative to peers. same as the s2 exige ...
the exige v6 (not a cheap car - relative to peers) with a bolt on SC (so it is possible to reconfig engines) deposit book was filled on headline numbers alone - hardly anyone has seen it or driven it, a first for lotus since the s1. headline numbers sell cars.
imo the europa, a good little car, could have achieved far better sales on headline numbers if it could have made them - relative to peers. same as the s2 exige ...
Scuffers said:
kind of missing the point, ie. DO NOT compare/go up against Porsche.
bobo said:
Indeed. To turn that on its head, if Fisker, with good ideas but no development experience could obtain that much money to do what they've done, why could Lotus not have done the same?in 2008 - end of the cycle fisker sourced funding so easily they were actually accused of initiating junky start-ups on investors. they still got the cash. and look where they are now. illustrates in reality what a complete rookie MK was during his tenure - same cycle - easy money ...
there's pro management and amateur management ... lotus have been blessed with one type, not the other.
there's pro management and amateur management ... lotus have been blessed with one type, not the other.
skwdenyer said:
Indeed. To turn that on its head, if Fisker, with good ideas but no development experience could obtain that much money to do what they've done, why could Lotus not have done the same?
Edited by bobo on Sunday 14th October 21:07
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