Jaguar Land Rover goes after replica community
Discussion
Touring442 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Hopefully it will mean Jaguar survives.
I don't think many will care if it doesn't. I couldn't give a monkeys if the gates shut tomorrow. Jaguar's golden era of truly unique and magical cars was so long ago now that fewer and fewer will actually recall it.craigjm said:
Oh yeah lets just throw 40000 UK workers and all the people employed to support them in their local communities and beyond onto the dole shall we just because you dont think their cars are "unique and magical" anymore.
Oh dear. Some poor lamb is feeling a bit emotional!Nice punctuation btw. Did you attend school, or were you raised by bears?
Talking of LR, will the new electric models be capable of strenuous off-road work? Will they have the stamina to tow caravans long distances? I have no idea, but as someone who grew up on the farm, so to speak, my knowledge of the name Land Rover was of a vehicle that could - and did - go anywhere. Are these new cars just Chelsea Tractors for delivering the kids to school? It seems to me that the requirements of, for instance, Africa, the hinterland of Australia, and so many countries are being sacrificed on the altar of greenness. Where I live there are a number of Landcruisers, a car I may well think of buying in 1929, purely because it is so tough and rugged it will do anything I might need of it. And help friends too. I tow a Brian Davis four wheel trailer with a car on it. A tankful will carry me - in my little C200CDi - from Le Mans to the middle of the UK with not a problem. These are things that concern me. Your advice please.
Leithen said:
Jaguar have been snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since the mid 60's. Unsurprisingly nothing remains of what Lyons and England presided over. Which is exactly why the current owners want to have complete control of what is now an almost mythical past. Shoddy behaviour.
An objective view from someone known to you all and who has no axe to grind. I believe Philip Porter has never owned a replica.C-type Replica Furore
Edited by XJ13 on Wednesday 17th February 21:13
lowdrag said:
It seems to me that the requirements of, for instance, Africa, the hinterland of Australia, and so many countries are being sacrificed on the altar of greenness.
You only have to look at the PAG era to realise that despite hefty salaries, many motor industry moguls are seemingly divorced from reality. But to answer your question, Africa, Australia etc have been well served by Toyota and Nissan for decades. The old Antipodean saying went 'If you wanna go into the bush, take a Land Rover. If you wanna come back again, take a Land Cruiser". :-)
LR has gradually become a 'brand' since the L322 arrived almost 20 years ago.
DonkeyApple said:
I could be barking completely up the wrong tree but I think that JLR's surprisingly slow entry into PHEV was down to ZF. You would have thought that being a manufacturer of premium, urban and suburban vehicles they would have entered into the hybrid market earlier but I don't believe it was possible due to their component partners,,namely ZF.
The 3rd generation of the ZF8 was launched in 2018. That's the version which contains the plug in and mild hybrid tech and this fits with JLR's Q4 2017 announcements on hybrids.
Prior to that ZF box being available I think the alternate solutions were too clumsy and costly to be viable in what was a very small market back then.
Few manufacturers followed Toyota as Toyota had copied (allegedly) the Antonov system for switching between the motors and alternate solutions weren't viable. It was only when the full hybrid system was integrated into the gearbox by the supplier that it did become viable for most manufacturers.
I think this is why you get lurches in hybrid news from manufacturers all around the same time because their tech, in this regard, all comes from the transmission manufacturers.
The 4th gen ZF is due next year so my guess is that this will mystically coincide with all ZF8 customers announcing lower CO2 and better hybrid ranges etc.
But more importantly is whether the ZF PHEV system could fit in an XJ6 or whether it will just have to be pure EV.
Interesting, sounds feasible. Anyone here have any insight from within JLR?The 3rd generation of the ZF8 was launched in 2018. That's the version which contains the plug in and mild hybrid tech and this fits with JLR's Q4 2017 announcements on hybrids.
Prior to that ZF box being available I think the alternate solutions were too clumsy and costly to be viable in what was a very small market back then.
Few manufacturers followed Toyota as Toyota had copied (allegedly) the Antonov system for switching between the motors and alternate solutions weren't viable. It was only when the full hybrid system was integrated into the gearbox by the supplier that it did become viable for most manufacturers.
I think this is why you get lurches in hybrid news from manufacturers all around the same time because their tech, in this regard, all comes from the transmission manufacturers.
The 4th gen ZF is due next year so my guess is that this will mystically coincide with all ZF8 customers announcing lower CO2 and better hybrid ranges etc.
But more importantly is whether the ZF PHEV system could fit in an XJ6 or whether it will just have to be pure EV.
V8MATTERS said:
I just cannot beleive JLR's behaviour over this issue , really narrow minded . JLR may yet get their comeuppance if Government stands its ground to refuse any further bail out loans . There are other UK Industries that deserve it more in my mind
Have they taken bail-out loans?XJ13 said:
Leithen said:
Jaguar have been snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since the mid 60's. Unsurprisingly nothing remains of what Lyons and England presided over. Which is exactly why the current owners want to have complete control of what is now an almost mythical past. Shoddy behaviour.
An objective view from someone known to you all and who has no axe to grind. I believe Philip Porter has never owned a replica.C-type Replica Furore
Edited by XJ13 on Wednesday 17th February 21:13
craigjm said:
Surely the key point is missed in that article though. When Jaguar heard of the plan to sell additional cars it wrote to Mangnusun and asked him to stop. This is not mentioned in the article. I don’t know about anyone else but if I was building a car and planning to build a couple to sell and then the owner of the rights wrote to me to stop I would have stopped. Why on earth would you continue to fight and put your livelihood at risk for a car? That’s what makes no sense to me.
The point is that before the Swedish ruling (which won't pass into law until the appeal runs its course), JLR did NOT own copyright on this 70-year-old design. The judgement came as a shock and will very likely be over-turned at appeal. Also, sensing an opportunity to gain this precedent, JLR demanded the Magnussens destroy their one and only personal car in their first warning - going straight to court. No "cease and desist", "dont make any more" etc. JLR effectively forced the Magnussens to defend themselves. Destroying the lives of this retired couple of no concern to them when they saw an opportunity to establish this new legal precedent (which they have been working towards over the last five or more years). Wrong on so many levels - immoral, cruel and short-sighted. For what gain?
JLR's new ex-Peugeot aggressively cost-cutting CEO has just announced the loss of 4000 JLR jobs in Coventry as they set course for an all-electric streamlined future. It would seem to me suicidal to risk losing what little reputation and customer-loyalty their heritage has brought them over the years. We do actually want JLR to succeed but not at the cost of losing the UK replica industry. Here in the UK we in the small-volume car industry build some of the finest cars in the world - employing thousands, contributing significantly to exports and our post-Brexit UK economy.
Edited by XJ13 on Thursday 18th February 08:35
Not at all disbelieving, just querying. I've only a few seconds ago read elsewhere that there are 2,000 jobs going. Which is correct? I can believe 4,000 including all outsourcing suppliers though.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-ne...
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-ne...
Edited by lowdrag on Thursday 18th February 10:23
XJ13 said:
An objective view from someone known to you all and who has no axe to grind. I believe Philip Porter has never owned a replica.
C-type Replica Furore
It's not really a view, I would say, just a reporting of the facts that are already in the public domain.C-type Replica Furore
Edited by XJ13 on Wednesday 17th February 21:13
'During the project, he considered building two more examples to help the cost of his own example. Jaguar claimed in court that he was going to build six. Magnusson states the agent used some creative thinking and, without consultation, increased the number to six.'
Interesting that an 'agent' has now appeared in the equation. Does anyone know who or what that was?
After failing for several years to object to Mr. Magnusson's project, Jaguar Classic then appeared to change their attitude and took Mr Magnusson, a long term Jaguar enthusiast and honorary member of the Swedish Jaguar club to court, winning the case.
And this seems dispel the claim that the court case was out of the blue if there had been several years of trying to stop the commercialisation of product.
That article seems to support a view that the chap started off building something for himself and then with an 'agent' decided to monetise that as a business, even to the point of setting up the venture legally. JLR then spent several years objecting andnobviously not getting anywhere until finally reaching the point of resorting to the courts to end the business and to remove the possibility of it being set up again in a different guise.
Was this really a vexatious global corporate relishing the crushing of a gentle old man's life or was it a greedy old man who refused to stop after being asked and so forced the corporate's hand causing horrible trouble for those he exists to look after?
Two sides as usual and neither side arguably being totally clear. The reality is likely to be someone in between.
The lesson still seems to be that if you own a replica then you're absolutely fine. If you want to buildnone in your shed you're absolutely fine. If you want to use Jaguar to help you build one and then use it to set up a business selling them then watch your back. That seems fair. And the long term damage is probably that Jaguar won't trust other enthusiasts as much going forward
Interesting that an 'agent' has now appeared in the equation. Does anyone know who or what that was?
After failing for several years to object to Mr. Magnusson's project, Jaguar Classic then appeared to change their attitude and took Mr Magnusson, a long term Jaguar enthusiast and honorary member of the Swedish Jaguar club to court, winning the case.
And this seems dispel the claim that the court case was out of the blue if there had been several years of trying to stop the commercialisation of product.
That article seems to support a view that the chap started off building something for himself and then with an 'agent' decided to monetise that as a business, even to the point of setting up the venture legally. JLR then spent several years objecting andnobviously not getting anywhere until finally reaching the point of resorting to the courts to end the business and to remove the possibility of it being set up again in a different guise.
Was this really a vexatious global corporate relishing the crushing of a gentle old man's life or was it a greedy old man who refused to stop after being asked and so forced the corporate's hand causing horrible trouble for those he exists to look after?
Two sides as usual and neither side arguably being totally clear. The reality is likely to be someone in between.
The lesson still seems to be that if you own a replica then you're absolutely fine. If you want to buildnone in your shed you're absolutely fine. If you want to use Jaguar to help you build one and then use it to set up a business selling them then watch your back. That seems fair. And the long term damage is probably that Jaguar won't trust other enthusiasts as much going forward
lowdrag said:
As always Mike, good to have your input on Lynx. The question of chassis numbers for the XKSS is easy to explain. As we all know, one had to build a certain number of cars for homologation purposes, and Jaguar followed Ferrari in a little ruse. The first chassis numbers were XKSS 701, 704, 707, 710. Hey Presto, we've built ten cars already! This series went on to XKSS 728, where it stopped except that one D-type shell numbered XKD 542 became XKD 754. The numbers in between were the numbers used to build the "continuation " cars. So from XKSS 728 to XKSS 754 we have 26 numbers, which divided by three gives nine. Er no it doesn't! It gives 8 2/3rds! But who's counting? Let's round it off to nine and we'll build nine cars and make an extra million profit.
DS 11, the Jaguar-owned replica, was part of the James Hull collection which Jaguar purchased in its entirety for a rumoured £40 million. It included this XKSS which was built by David Duffy and Jerry Booen, and is a "proper" replica, unlike a Lynx, and I was told that James Hull paid £420,000 for it. The photo above I took in 2009 while we were fettling the Kettle at Goodwood and Jerry was doing the same with the XKSS Hope this helps.
I have read this whole thread with dismay towards JLR.DS 11, the Jaguar-owned replica, was part of the James Hull collection which Jaguar purchased in its entirety for a rumoured £40 million. It included this XKSS which was built by David Duffy and Jerry Booen, and is a "proper" replica, unlike a Lynx, and I was told that James Hull paid £420,000 for it. The photo above I took in 2009 while we were fettling the Kettle at Goodwood and Jerry was doing the same with the XKSS Hope this helps.
I think they deserve all the ill-will they generate towards the average enthusiast .
It's now some years since I consulted you (Tony) as I was mulling over the purchase of a C-Type Replica.
I looked at several including a Proteus and tested the Suffolk. Not for me...but local and easily arranged.
Anyway, I am acquainted with David (and Jerry) and was invited to witness the first shakedown of DS11 before it went to James Hull.
Having now just about established a means of uploading photographs, here are a few of that morning (July 2009).
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XJ13 said:
Leithen said:
Jaguar have been snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since the mid 60's. Unsurprisingly nothing remains of what Lyons and England presided over. Which is exactly why the current owners want to have complete control of what is now an almost mythical past. Shoddy behaviour.
An objective view from someone known to you all and who has no axe to grind. I believe Philip Porter has never owned a replica.C-type Replica Furore
Edited by XJ13 on Wednesday 17th February 21:13
Philip Porter said:
In the legal documents, Magnusson is accused of using the C-type trademark. This model name was not actually the factory designation for the car. They were always referred to in period company documentation as the XK 120C. It has long been believed, and stated in print, that 'C-type' was first coined by motoring journalist, Harold Hastings (from memory). It has been used by many replica constructors and by dealers selling examples for several decades.
In the sales brochure for the customer C Type the model is described as the Jaguar XK120 "C" Type and the opening paragraph starts
The "C" Type Jaguar XK120 model ...
http://www.jag-lovers.org/brochures/ctype.html
I don't know whether Harold Hastings was the first to coin the term, but this shows that Jaguar were using the term in period. The D Type brochure simply refers to the D Type.
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