Why the obsession with originality of classics?
Discussion
mph said:
I'm a professional engineer and any "improvements" on my cars are carried out with taste and for valid reasons.
In your opinion.I'm sure that nobody undertakes 'improvements' on their cars that they themselves consider to be in bad taste and for invalid reasons - even the chap who perpetrated this:
e21Mark said:
There you go with those extremes again.
Yes, of course. The point I'm making is that I'm not attacking MPH (or anyone else) personally... his modifications may very well be responsible, tasteful and valid.
...but then again they may not, and there is no control over that.
If the car is not of significant historic importance, all well and good - I doubt that anyone is going to lose any sleep over b
dising an old Vauxhall Astra, or even an old E-type, so long as there are plenty of historically correct examples left. But when you get to cars of real historic significance, it seems unwise to rely on the fact that someone had enough money to buy the car in the first place being a guarantee of their good judgement.For me , a Classic car needs to drive like it did (or close to) when it was new.
I don't care that parts are original as such ( no interest in matching numbers) , but they do need to be to original Spec.
I want to drive the car how it was intended out of the factory.
If you buy a car (Lets say an E Type jag) , and then swap the engine for a different one.
In my eyes you don't really have an E Type Jag anymore , you have a "Frankenstein's" monster that won't behave like an E-Type jag.
Not sure if anyone else feels the same way but thought i'd share my thoughts
I don't care that parts are original as such ( no interest in matching numbers) , but they do need to be to original Spec.
I want to drive the car how it was intended out of the factory.
If you buy a car (Lets say an E Type jag) , and then swap the engine for a different one.
In my eyes you don't really have an E Type Jag anymore , you have a "Frankenstein's" monster that won't behave like an E-Type jag.
Not sure if anyone else feels the same way but thought i'd share my thoughts
Equus said:
Yes, of course.
The point I'm making is that I'm not attacking MPH (or anyone else) personally... his modifications may very well be responsible, tasteful and valid.
...but then again they may not, and there is no control over that.
If the car is not of significant historic importance, all well and good - I doubt that anyone is going to lose any sleep over bdising an old Vauxhall Astra, or even an old E-type, so long as there are plenty of historically correct examples left. But when you get to cars of real historic significance, it seems unwise to rely on the fact that someone had enough money to buy the car in the first place being a guarantee of their good judgement.
There's plenty of evidence that people who buy historically important cars are usually the people who will do the right thing. In fact their obsession to detail is the point the OP was making.The point I'm making is that I'm not attacking MPH (or anyone else) personally... his modifications may very well be responsible, tasteful and valid.
...but then again they may not, and there is no control over that.
If the car is not of significant historic importance, all well and good - I doubt that anyone is going to lose any sleep over b
dising an old Vauxhall Astra, or even an old E-type, so long as there are plenty of historically correct examples left. But when you get to cars of real historic significance, it seems unwise to rely on the fact that someone had enough money to buy the car in the first place being a guarantee of their good judgement.Pleased to hear you're not attacking anyone personally. That's in your opinion of course.
Bearing under the strain of the contentiousness of one poster once again, here is a very modified E-type. Obviously, this is abhorrent and should not be allowed, but on the other hand it is the BBC Modsports champion from the 1970s driven and owned by my dear departed friend John Burbidge.
ETA With thanks to Paul Skilleter for the use of his photo.
ETA With thanks to Paul Skilleter for the use of his photo.
Equus said:
e21Mark said:
There you go with those extremes again.
Yes, of course. The point I'm making is that I'm not attacking MPH (or anyone else) personally... his modifications may very well be responsible, tasteful and valid.
...but then again they may not, and there is no control over that.
The point you seem to be missing is it is his flippin' car.
Even if it is the entirely unique one-off Goshwhatta Impressivecar, sellable in original condition for more beer tokens than the vast majority of us can even dream of, it is still his car, and within very wide limits (-if- he is planning to use it on the road, I'd like it to meet the local equivalent of the Construction and Use Regulations... but that's as far as it goes) what exactly does it matter whether he restores it to the condition it should have been when built, or mods it to something that suits his idea of what a Goshwhatta should have been.
One of those -may- be better for his bank balance, but if he's happy with the outcome, good for him.
And yes, this does apply equally well to a stanced dub, or a barried-up (insert make here).
I don't like stanced or barried motors, but if the owner is happy, and it is at least reasonably legal if it is used on the road, what say should I have in the matter - naff all is my thought...
I might point and laugh, but I expect the stanced owner would point and laugh at my completely unmodified grandad spec Insipid, which seems perfectly reasonable to me!
Equus said:
DonkeyApple said:
People simply aren't buggering about with genuinely rare cars.
I hear what you're saying, but I'm afraid I just don't trust self regulation. And if thousands of examples remain of a certain car, it would obviously attract a very low level of 'listing', allowing much greater flexibility of modification and lower levels of scrutiny (which is basically how the building listing system works, too, only it's on rarity or historic importance of features rather than the whole building, necessarily).
I agree with you entirely about the state of the FIA Technical Passport system, but it's a hell of a lot more closely regulated than roadgoing classics... with the latter, you can add 'tastelessly and inappropriately modified' to your list of kitcars, ringers and trigger's brooms.
Can you just imagine the abject horror of some of the worst EType or MG 'aficionados' telling you what you can and can't do with your own car and trying to force every single car in the UK to conform 100% to their version of history!!!!!! At least when you see them at events you can walk away.
Abject insanity. And that's before we even consider the cost of raising this army of Nazi transport fettishers and keeping them supplied with clipboards, forms and official pens.
Frankly the best thing we could do is announce that this scheme is going to happen and then collect all the people who apply for the roles and courrier them to the South Pole where they can inform the penguins that their plumage is not correct.
StonetheCrows said:
If you think that's good wait till you see the VW bonnet on my Silver Shadow. 
DonkeyApple said:
I would say that the absolute last thing the classic car market needs is busy body, nosey, socialist cocksockets being offered badges and uniforms to go and interfere in peoples' lives. These roles have a tendency to attract the most ghastly little know it all turds, priapismic as the thought of being able to step foot on your property and regale with their vast wisdom and force you to comply with their made up version of history.
This is one of the most amusing but straight to the point sentences I have ever read on Tinternet, so I thank you. Had to google priapismic though, As for originality in classic cars, I can see both sides of modding or originality, at the end of the day, its your car do what you want with it.
Gojira said:
And why should there be?
The point you seem to be missing is it is his flippin' car.
Well, the argument that seems to be accepted for other heritage assets, such as the countryside and historic buildings, is they are of wider value and importance than just to their owners; that the owner at any given point in time is merely the custodian, who has a duty to preserve the property for future generations.The point you seem to be missing is it is his flippin' car.
Again, we wouldn't be concerned with old Astras and Escorts (except perhaps World Rally Championship winning ones), but as the vehicles begin to accrue genuine historic importance, perhaps that should be protected?
lowdrag said:
... but on the other hand it is the BBC Modsports champion from the 1970s driven and owned by my dear departed friend John Burbidge.
And thereby gained its historic importance by means of period modifications.Nobody, least of all me, is suggesting that cars shouldn't be modified for racing when they are still on 'active service' so to speak (to revisit the analogy drawn with Tornado fighters earlier in the thread).
On the contrary: if the car gained an important history because of them, the modifications should themselves be preserved.
Equus said:
Gojira said:
And why should there be?
The point you seem to be missing is it is his flippin' car.
Well, the argument that seems to be accepted for other heritage assets, such as the countryside and historic buildings, is they are of wider value and importance than just to their owners; that the owner at any given point in time is merely the custodian, who has a duty to preserve the property for future generations.The point you seem to be missing is it is his flippin' car.
What J Random Owner does to his one-off, perfect motor doesn't have anything like the same effect on other people.
Although maybe there is a case for something like "English Motoring Heritage" or "National Car Trust". What could -possibly- go wrong?
Equus said:
Again, we wouldn't be concerned with old Astras and Escorts (except perhaps World Rally Championship winning ones), but as the vehicles begin to accrue genuine historic importance, perhaps that should be protected?
If you want to protect it, raise the money to buy it and save it - if enough people agree with you, it shouldn't be a difficult task, should it?StonetheCrows said:
They only made around 21,000,000 Beetles. They all really should be identical and no one allowed to touch one without the correct government sanctioned qualifications and under the close supervision of a park weirdo with a clipboard. Gojira said:
Apples and oranges - what you do to your property can have significant effects on neighbouring properties.
Not so at all: it's the Listed property that is important, not the neighbouring ones.In fact, it's the other way around: if you're proposing 'ordinary' development in proximity to a Listed building, the planning system takes special account of 'impact on the setting of a listed building'. If you alter a listed building, they certainly don't take special account of the impact on ordinary properties next door.
For all the criticism of the Planning system with Listed buildings, it does prevent the worst of the tasteless and ill-conceived modifications we've seen illustrated on this thread. The people who b
h about it most are usually the ones we need most protection from.Equus said:
For all the criticism of the Planning system with Listed buildings, it does prevent the worst of the tasteless and ill-conceived modifications we've seen illustrated on this thread. The people who bh about it most are usually the ones we need most protection from.
I can think of a better ways to spend public money on our movement than using it to prevent someone customising his or her VW Beetle, or even customising a previously written-off 2+2 E Type as per your own example.h about it most are usually the ones we need most protection from.I don't see much evidence that rare and historically interesting cars are being butchered in numbers. Quite the contrary. It's a non subject, in my opinion.
Equus said:
For all the criticism of the Planning system with Listed buildings, it does prevent the worst of the tasteless and ill-conceived modifications we've seen illustrated on this thread.
Listed status for a building is generally limited to the facade, so limiting the outward visual changes you can property/car. They don't tend to cover the 'mechanicals' of the property though. You are generally permitted to replace the lead water pipes with copper/the gas lighting with electric/the drum brakes with disks/the old 4-pot with a modern one...Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff