Tell me about British Leyland

[PurpleTurtle]

Yertis said:

cardigankid said:

Labour in the 70's were facing national bankruptcy of the type experienced by some South American countries, and carrying out a balancing act to preserve some kind of order, rather than embracing free enterprise. They put Don Ryder, a civil servant, in charge of the National Enterprise Board, and ultimately nationalised BL, but civil servants can't run businesses, that has been proved many times. There were plenty of Trots around, including in government, who remained determined to see the whole lot crash, 'to demonstrate the fundamental contradictions within the capitalist system'. There were no inspired moves, no great new products, just a rehash of the old stuff and the introduction of a Japanese car disguised as a Rover, an admission that BL was hopelessly out of its depth. I'll say this much for Sir Michael Edwardes, he prevented a catastrophic crash, and the result was a controlled landing - BL still disappeared - it was hardly a turnaround.

I think his ditching of the TR8 was an error. It left BL with no 'halo' model at all, just worthy/dull hatchbacks and saloons. The TR7, in convertible form and if properly assembled, was/is a good car by any (contemporary) standards. Dropping in the V8 turned it into the car it always should have been, and IMO it would have been a very strong seller in its own right as 'the 80s' got going, and given the brand some glitter. No doubt there were sound economic reasons for dropping the model, but decisions made on spreadsheets alone do not sire success.

As a kid I was a massive fan of the TR7 and TR8, but the wrong car for the times. Even as a halo model, it could not have carried the rest of the range.
Bear in mind that this was at the point in time when the small family hatchback was about to come along and take the small car market in an entirely different direction. The hot hatchback sucked up any potential buyers of the TR7 or TR8, tempted by the likes of the Golf GTi/Peugeot 205 GTi which offered similar or better performance, reliability and economy. Nobody else was punting a mass-market V8 in the UK at the time due to the price of fuel.

[saaby93]

Yertis said:

I think his ditching of the TR8 was an error. It left BL with no 'halo' model at all,

You have to remember what the cars were like at the end of the production line.

Halo model that falls apart before it reaches the dealer? What does that say?

[LuS1fer]

PurpleTurtle said:

As a kid I was a massive fan of the TR7 and TR8, but the wrong car for the times. Even as a halo model, it could not have carried the rest of the range.
Bear in mind that this was at the point in time when the small family hatchback was about to come along and take the small car market in an entirely different direction. The hot hatchback sucked up any potential buyers of the TR7 or TR8, tempted by the likes of the Golf GTi/Peugeot 205 GTi which offered similar or better performance, reliability and economy. Nobody else was punting a mass-market V8 in the UK at the time due to the price of fuel.

The 205 GTi and R5 GT Turbo only came along in the mid 80s. The late 70s was the slow selling Chevette 2300HS and Lotus Sunbeam. Beneath that were smaller neonate hot hatches like the Fiesta 1300 Suprsport and Renault 5 Gordini.

The TR7 V8 was barely advertised and BL already had the MGB GT V8 which, if less capable, was much better looking than the awkward TR7. Even as a teenager, I was disappointed by the way the TR7 looked.
The late 70s was also an expensive time, in terms of people choosing to buy houses and high interest rates and most people had used cars, not new cars.

The TR7 V8 suffered through being a 2 seater of limited practicality, next to a Capri 3.0S or Escort RS2000 or even their own Dolomite Sprint.

Swoopy coupes were in fashion and BL designs were always controversial, to say the least. Though my father bought a new Princess 2 HLS, most people bought Cortinas and Granadas, which had a far better image.

[alabbasi]

TR8 was a car for the US market which is where most British sports cars were sold

[a8hex]

Yertis said:

.--------------8<-------------------
and if properly assembled
.--------------8<-------------------

kind of sums up a lot of the problems, many of the cars could have been good if only they'd been properly assembled or it had been possible to properly assemble them given the design and the equipment available.

[alabbasi]

I'm pretty sure that it had nothing to do with design and equipment. A friend of mine worked for a foreign car dealership in Atlanta back when BL was importing cars. His job was to put the cars on the lift when they were delivered off the boat and tighten up all the bolts so that they don't come back as soon as they were sold.

[Yertis]

PurpleTurtle said:

As a kid I was a massive fan of the TR7 and TR8, but the wrong car for the times. Even as a halo model, it could not have carried the rest of the range.
Bear in mind that this was at the point in time when the small family hatchback was about to come along and take the small car market in an entirely different direction. The hot hatchback sucked up any potential buyers of the TR7 or TR8, tempted by the likes of the Golf GTi/Peugeot 205 GTi which offered similar or better performance, reliability and economy. Nobody else was punting a mass-market V8 in the UK at the time due to the price of fuel.

I'm not arguing, but for the sake of discussion I'll advance the idea that cars like the Golf GTi came to dominate because there was a dearth of affordable sportscars and the TR7 (which despite what everyone says sold very well) was terminated just as the GTi really took off. There clealy was a market for the affordable two seat sportscar, as Mazda and later BMW, for example, have proved. I might (but won't) argue that the TR7 was ahead of its time...

saaby93 said:

You have to remember what the cars were like at the end of the production line.

Halo model that falls apart before it reaches the dealer? What does that say?

Well I did say "if properly assembled". I think that speaks of a major part of BLs problems, ie reputational loss. By the time the TR8 came along production had been repatriated from Speke to Triumph's 'proper' factory at Speke, and the cars were very much better put together. Still BL, obviously, but not mid-70s Speke BL.

[a8hex]

alabbasi said:

I'm pretty sure that it had nothing to do with design and equipment. A friend of mine worked for a foreign car dealership in Atlanta back when BL was importing cars. His job was to put the cars on the lift when they were delivered off the boat and tighten up all the bolts so that they don't come back as soon as they were sold.

Your friend is no doubt right, I remember talking to people back in the early 80s about Triumph engines and being told it wasn't difficult to get the original design spec outputs from them if only took them to bits and put them back together properly.
But I think there was also an issue that due to under investment a lot of the equipment was knackered too.

[alabbasi]

I don't think it was under investment. These were mature businesses in the industries they were in. Unless when you say investment, you actually mean government subsidies. At least from what I've read and listened to; While some of the issues were related to forward planning, the contention between workers and managers was poisonous. Union leader had the expectation that the government will continue to pay salaries regardless of what kind of crap they built, or whether they sold anything or not.

We tend to look back with rose tinted glasses, especially in this political climate (on both sides of the pond) as we project our anger at other countries that we accuse of stealing our jobs. The reality is that the reason that manufacturing was outsourced is because for the most part, it became completely dysfunctional and non competitive to keep it here, We were building giant turds back then and expecting the general public to buy it. Thatcher was right to break it up and sell it off. If they could not make a product that was good enough for the public to buy, the public shouldn't be made to pay for it through their taxes.

I've owned several BL cars over the years, like a Rover P6, MGB and still own a TR6 and a 75 Jaguar XJ12C. As a hobby car, they're a lot of fun. If I had to buy one when it was new, I don't think i'd be as fond about sticking my head under the bonnet every other day.

[tr7v8]

Yertis said:

cardigankid said:

Labour in the 70's were facing national bankruptcy of the type experienced by some South American countries, and carrying out a balancing act to preserve some kind of order, rather than embracing free enterprise. They put Don Ryder, a civil servant, in charge of the National Enterprise Board, and ultimately nationalised BL, but civil servants can't run businesses, that has been proved many times. There were plenty of Trots around, including in government, who remained determined to see the whole lot crash, 'to demonstrate the fundamental contradictions within the capitalist system'. There were no inspired moves, no great new products, just a rehash of the old stuff and the introduction of a Japanese car disguised as a Rover, an admission that BL was hopelessly out of its depth. I'll say this much for Sir Michael Edwardes, he prevented a catastrophic crash, and the result was a controlled landing - BL still disappeared - it was hardly a turnaround.

I think his ditching of the TR8 was an error. It left BL with no 'halo' model at all, just worthy/dull hatchbacks and saloons. The TR7, in convertible form and if properly assembled, was/is a good car by any (contemporary) standards. Dropping in the V8 turned it into the car it always should have been, and IMO it would have been a very strong seller in its own right as 'the 80s' got going, and given the brand some glitter. No doubt there were sound economic reasons for dropping the model, but decisions made on spreadsheets alone do not sire success.

The TR7 & 8 ceased production because they couldn't be sold at a competitive price £ vs $.
The TR7 was a fairly upmarket sports car & extremely strong. It was mainly developed for the USA market & really should have had a Euro version. It was a shame the Sprint engine couldn't meet decent emission standards as that would have given it some more oumph. Another engine that was discussed was the O series 2L.
There weren't enough V8s to go round was another issue.
Tony Pond always said a developed 7 V8 would be a better rally car than the Escort, but BL Motorsport ceased before that & it was starved of development.

[TarquinMX5]

alabbasi said:

I'm pretty sure that it had nothing to do with design and equipment. A friend of mine worked for a foreign car dealership in Atlanta back when BL was importing cars. His job was to put the cars on the lift when they were delivered off the boat and tighten up all the bolts so that they don't come back as soon as they were sold.

There were some issues with the presses though, in particular those that had been in use for many years, such as Rover P5Bs, towards the end of production the panels weren't as 'accurate' as the early panels simply because the presses were worn and BL wouldn't invest in updates. When you think how many of their models had long shelf lives, you must question whether the ssmecapplied to other models as well. Add to that to a demoralised workforce, in Rover's case, and it probably shouldn't be a surprise that quality suffered. Shame.

There were rumours that cheaper steel was used under BL but I'm not aware of any evidence to support that.

[a8hex]

alabbasi said:

I don't think it was under investment. These were mature businesses in the industries they were in. Unless when you say investment, you actually mean government subsidies. At least from what I've read and listened to; While some of the issues were related to forward planning, the contention between workers and managers was poisonous. Union leader had the expectation that the government will continue to pay salaries regardless of what kind of crap they built, or whether they sold anything or not.

We tend to look back with rose tinted glasses, especially in this political climate (on both sides of the pond) as we project our anger at other countries that we accuse of stealing our jobs. The reality is that the reason that manufacturing was outsourced is because for the most part, it became completely dysfunctional and non competitive to keep it here, We were building giant turds back then and expecting the general public to buy it. Thatcher was right to break it up and sell it off. If they could not make a product that was good enough for the public to buy, the public shouldn't be made to pay for it through their taxes.

I've owned several BL cars over the years, like a Rover P6, MGB and still own a TR6 and a 75 Jaguar XJ12C. As a hobby car, they're a lot of fun. If I had to buy one when it was new, I don't think i'd be as fond about sticking my head under the bonnet every other day.

I'm not looking back with rose tinted glasses and I well remember the near daily news of yet another strike at yet another BL plant.
Much of the British car industry had under invested for years. They tried to do things on a shoestring. Certainly by the 70s any investment would have had to come from the government and would probably have been a case of throwing good money after bad for all the problems you're talking about. But it wasn't a case that the work force were turning out giant turds from state of the art factories using state of the art tooling. But why would anyone want to invest when there was no expectation of any return.

PS, what a lovely pair of hobby cars to have.

[alabbasi]

a8hex said:

PS, what a lovely pair of hobby cars to have.

Thanks, the TR6 was a great buy. The XJ12C has been a bit of a challenge.

Edited by alabbasi on Tuesday 3rd November 19:40

[Halmyre]

tr7v8 said:

Yertis said:

cardigankid said:

Labour in the 70's were facing national bankruptcy of the type experienced by some South American countries, and carrying out a balancing act to preserve some kind of order, rather than embracing free enterprise. They put Don Ryder, a civil servant, in charge of the National Enterprise Board, and ultimately nationalised BL, but civil servants can't run businesses, that has been proved many times. There were plenty of Trots around, including in government, who remained determined to see the whole lot crash, 'to demonstrate the fundamental contradictions within the capitalist system'. There were no inspired moves, no great new products, just a rehash of the old stuff and the introduction of a Japanese car disguised as a Rover, an admission that BL was hopelessly out of its depth. I'll say this much for Sir Michael Edwardes, he prevented a catastrophic crash, and the result was a controlled landing - BL still disappeared - it was hardly a turnaround.

I think his ditching of the TR8 was an error. It left BL with no 'halo' model at all, just worthy/dull hatchbacks and saloons. The TR7, in convertible form and if properly assembled, was/is a good car by any (contemporary) standards. Dropping in the V8 turned it into the car it always should have been, and IMO it would have been a very strong seller in its own right as 'the 80s' got going, and given the brand some glitter. No doubt there were sound economic reasons for dropping the model, but decisions made on spreadsheets alone do not sire success.

The TR7 & 8 ceased production because they couldn't be sold at a competitive price £ vs $.
The TR7 was a fairly upmarket sports car & extremely strong. It was mainly developed for the USA market & really should have had a Euro version. It was a shame the Sprint engine couldn't meet decent emission standards as that would have given it some more oumph. Another engine that was discussed was the O series 2L.
There weren't enough V8s to go round was another issue.
Tony Pond always said a developed 7 V8 would be a better rally car than the Escort, but BL Motorsport ceased before that & it was starved of development.

Don't know if this is an urban myth, but IIRC the TR7s were all set to win a convincing victory in an international rally (Tour de Corse?). Last day, fresh out of parc ferme, they all ground to a halt with seized engines, the sump plugs having mysteriously come undone overnight...

[Dr Jekyll]

tr7v8 said:

There weren't enough V8s to go round was another issue.

One sentence that sums up BL sports cars, if not the entire state of humanity.

[aeropilot]

mac96 said:

But in a straight comparison between Allegro and comparably low powered Mk2 Escort the Allegro wins hands down .

Well......back in the early 70's the Met.Police started ordering huge numbers of Allegro's to replace the huge fleet of Morris Minor Panda cars they had........

They were woeful........and after the first order of how ever many hundreds of them, they never ordered anymore, and then for the first time in decades, they turned to Ford, and bought Ford Escort Mk.2 Popular's instead until gradually replacing these with Metro's in the early 80's, although some of the Mk2 Escorts were still in service into 1983.

[cardigankid]

If you are launching a sports car you give it looks and power. The outgoing Triumph 2.5 PI engine was one of the great engines of all.

At the time of course we were going through an earlier phase of giving up our guilty pleasures, people weren't going to want powerful cars, Ralph Nader, convertibles were going to be banned, oil was going to run out, Schumacher's Limits to Growth, we are going into cosy socialism, much like today in fact. The future was going to be about exclusivity, posing, brand and luxury - Ferrari Mondial, Porsche 928, all woefully underpowered when launched, caught up later but it was too late, people were already bored with them. TR7 likewise. An underpowered 'pretend mid-engined' car. Like electric cars today, people won't want them, however much hype they push out, and they will have to go back to the drawing board.

My point is that if the company had been run by a Lee Iacocca or John Delorean or Carroll Shelby or just someone who had a feeling for cars they might have had a chance, but a bunch of civil servants and corporate apparatchiks, even Edwardes, the end was inevitable.

Something which is now almost forgotten is the strong belief that what British cars needed to sell was big comfy seats, soft suspension and loads of fake wood. The last shout of that was the Rover 75, but it was virtually the raison d'etre of BL.

[shoestring7]

cardigankid said:

If you are launching a sports car you give it looks and power. The outgoing Triumph 2.5 PI engine was one of the great engines of all.

Was that great engine the one with Lucas fuel injection that didn't work?

[Yertis]

Dr Jekyll said:

tr7v8 said:

There weren't enough V8s to go round was another issue.

One sentence that sums up BL sports cars, if not the entire state of humanity.

[Yertis]

shoestring7 said:

cardigankid said:

If you are launching a sports car you give it looks and power. The outgoing Triumph 2.5 PI engine was one of the great engines of all.

Was that great engine the one with Lucas fuel injection that didn't work?

No one ever says that in connection with Maseratis or Le Mans-winning D-Type Jags.

Lucas fuel injection works bloody well and is extremely reliable. Same could not be said for technicians who failed to learn how it worked (apparently). Even the fuel pump issue wasn't as bad 'in period', because the pumps were new and fuel less volatile. And of course there were the usual BL quality control issues (apparently).

I say this as a student of course, I only became exposed to the system in the mid 80s. When it goes off the boil (or more usually on the boil, when fuel vaporises) it's pretty easy to chase down the fault, compared to say K-Jetronic.