BBC1 Tonight at 9 - To Kill a Burglar: The Tony Martin Story
Discussion
Yugguy said:
You may say 'defend yourself' but the onus is on YOU not to overstep the mark and not on the burglar to not be there in the first place. Which is bollox.
Not at all, the onus is on you to defend yourself with reasonable force. Why you'd ever see fit to utterly destroy someone is quite beyond me. There's defending yourself and there's lowering yourself to the same gutter-level as them.
Ecks Ridgehead said:
You may say 'defend yourself' but the onus is on YOU not to overstep the mark and not on the burglar to not be there in the first place. Which is bollox.
Not at all, the onus is on you to defend yourself with reasonable force. Why you'd ever see fit to utterly destroy someone is quite beyond me. There's defending yourself and there's lowering yourself to the same gutter-level as them.
I'm not talking about utterly destroying someone, I'm talking about in a fight, with thoughts of your family in your head, with the adrenaline running high the ONUS should not have to be on you to have to worry about reasonable, to worry that if you hit them just once too often you'd be the one going to court. Because it won't be you that decides what's reasonable, it will be a judge/jury being swayed by emotive arguments from all sides.
Seriously, despite my flippant comments, I don't think Tony should have shot them running away, but they should not have robbed him so I can't feel a huge amount of sympathy.
Ecks Ridgehead said:
Aye. I wonder though if he's ever experienced burglary first hand, or seen the effects it can have on a close family member?
Not personally, but my uncle has. All he could talk about afterwards was how he'd have bum-raped the little sod if he'd caught him at it.
But seriously, is the psychological trauma going to be lessened by emptying two barrels of buckshot into someone's spine? It's not going to stop another burglar breaking in in the future, is it?
Well they won't becoming back, which was the major worry was us when it happend....
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Phew! That's a lot of problems to fix. Give me a minute....
Seriously now, I really don't know and I agree prevention is better than cure. I just know that as soon as people start suggesting breeding people out, targeting sections of society or compulsory sterilisation I think of books like Mein Kampf.
Anyway, back on topic. We were talking about getting dressed up like old ladies and shooting people in the back, no?
Yugguy said:
I'm not talking about utterly destroying someone, I'm talking about in a fight, with thoughts of your family in your head, with the adrenaline running high the ONUS should not have to be on you to have to worry about reasonable, to worry that if you hit them just once too often you'd be the one going to court. Because it won't be you that decides what's reasonable, it will be a judge/jury being swayed by emotive arguments from all sides.
Seriously, despite my flippant comments, I don't think Tony should have shot them running away, but they should not have robbed him so I can't feel a huge amount of sympathy.
But if it's a case of hitting them once too often then no judge or jury is ever going to realistically take the side of the burglar. I'm talking about stabbing an unarmed man, or shooting someone when they're running away. That's the kind of thing that a judge or jury will find harder to stomach.
And don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy for the burglars...I just disagree with the assertion that Tony Martin is some kind of "hero".
garyhun said:
My wife and I were attacked last week in our house by a bloke with a baseball bat. My daughter saw it all and is totally traumatised. It was the 5th time these people had come to rob the house, even though we kept calling the poilce. The guy apparently does it all over the county and had just been let out after serving 3 months of a 2 year sentence due to good behaviour. I only had a knife and I was worried that if I stabbed hin and killed him I might end up in prison cos it's more dangerous than his baseball bat. If I'd gone to prison who would look after my wife and daughter? The wife and I will hopefully be out of hospital in 2 months and then we can get our daughter back from social services and start again. I'm sure we'll all be OK. Oh..and my neighbours house was done over last night...the police think it's the same bloke who beat us up. Ah well, at least I did not break the law defending myself!!
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 17th March 11:34
Ecks..I noticed you ignored this. Oversight or too much to respond to?
Ecks Ridgehead said:
Oh dear...you've got to worry when a man with "Hun" in his name agrees with your ideas on euthanasia...
Shall we start another room in PH for everyone that wants petty thieves shot / sterilised / bred out of existence before they're born? Instead of Pie & Piston, we could call it:
The Aryan Christian
Ze Kamp
Mega City One
Raify said:
Oh dear...you've got to worry when a man with "Hun" in his name agrees with your ideas on euthanasia...
Shall we start another room in PH for everyone that wants petty thieves shot / sterilised / bred out of existence before they're born? Instead of Pie & Piston, we could call it:
The Aryan Christian
Ze Kamp
Mega City One
Excellent idea. And another for all those who think it's wrong to defend yourself in your own home. YOu could write a book about it:
Sandal City
How to better a burglar by sending him on holiday
The Law - it worked once
garyhun said:
My wife and I were attacked last week in our house by a bloke with a baseball bat. My daughter saw it all and is totally traumatised. It was the 5th time these people had come to rob the house, even though we kept calling the poilce. The guy apparently does it all over the county and had just been let out after serving 3 months of a 2 year sentence due to good behaviour. I only had a knife and I was worried that if I stabbed hin and killed him I might end up in prison cos it's more dangerous than his baseball bat. If I'd gone to prison who would look after my wife and daughter? The wife and I will hopefully be out of hospital in 2 months and then we can get our daughter back from social services and start again. I'm sure we'll all be OK. Oh..and my neighbours house was done over last night...the police think it's the same bloke who beat us up. Ah well, at least I did not break the law defending myself!!
>> Edited by garyhun on Friday 17th March 11:34
Ecks..I noticed you ignored this. Oversight or too much to respond to?
OK...
It's very clunky, exceedingly far-fetched (why would they come back five times to rob you? Did they have a really, really small swag bag? If he does it all around the country and has done it five, count 'em, five times at your house and he's out on parole, I think the police would probably do something) and the spelling and grammar leave a lot to be desired. All in all, don't give up your day job.
Oh, you wanted a response, not a critique? OK...
I'm not quite sure of the point you're trying to make. It seems to be that if you'd stabbed him then none of it would have happened. Well, if it had been me in that same situation, I think I would have stabbed him. A baseball bat is far longer range than a knife, so could be considered to be equivalent. Plus, if there was nothing else to hand you wouldn't be expected to go bare knuckle against him. So to conclude, you'd be pretty stupid to think about self-defence vs manslaughter in that situation...and to be honest I don't think you would anyway. And no jury in the land would convict you.
Happier now?
garyhun said:
Excellent idea. And another for all those who think it's wrong to defend yourself in your own home. YOu could write a book about it:
Sandal City
How to better a burglar by sending him on holiday
The Law - it worked once
I love this place! Suggest that it's not very nice to blunderbuss someone in the spine whilst they're running away from you, and the Sandalista comments come out! If that's all I need to become an honorary Sandalista (I don't actually have any sandals) then fine, sign me up and I'll start growing a straggly beard.
I can't see any posts here saying that it's wrong to defend yourself in your own home, just that it's going too far to kill them as they run off. Try and keep up, Kommandant!
Ecks Ridgehead said:
My wife and I were attacked last week in our house by a bloke with a baseball bat. My daughter saw it all and is totally traumatised. It was the 5th time these people had come to rob the house, even though we kept calling the poilce. The guy apparently does it all over the county and had just been let out after serving 3 months of a 2 year sentence due to good behaviour. I only had a knife and I was worried that if I stabbed hin and killed him I might end up in prison cos it's more dangerous than his baseball bat. If I'd gone to prison who would look after my wife and daughter? The wife and I will hopefully be out of hospital in 2 months and then we can get our daughter back from social services and start again. I'm sure we'll all be OK. Oh..and my neighbours house was done over last night...the police think it's the same bloke who beat us up. Ah well, at least I did not break the law defending myself!!
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 17th March 11:34
Ecks..I noticed you ignored this. Oversight or too much to respond to?
OK...
It's very clunky, exceedingly far-fetched (why would they come back five times to rob you? Did they have a really, really small swag bag? If he does it all around the country and has done it five, count 'em, five times at your house and he's out on parole, I think the police would probably do something) and the spelling and grammar leave a lot to be desired. All in all, don't give up your day job.
Oh, you wanted a response, not a critique? OK...
I'm not quite sure of the point you're trying to make. It seems to be that if you'd stabbed him then none of it would have happened. Well, if it had been me in that same situation, I think I would have stabbed him. A baseball bat is far longer range than a knife, so could be considered to be equivalent. Plus, if there was nothing else to hand you wouldn't be expected to go bare knuckle against him. So to conclude, you'd be pretty stupid to think about self-defence vs manslaughter in that situation...and to be honest I don't think you would anyway. And no jury in the land would convict you.
Happier now?
You do like to make out that the 5 times is all a sham, don't you? I believe Tony Martin was being hounded by those pikeys on multiple occasions - FACT. And if you knew anything about these type of people it's that when they know they can get away with robbing a house they WILL return. So I'd be stupid to think about self defence would I? - sorry do not agree one bit with that. The fact that people are going to prison and the law is vague on this is exactly the issue here. I did not believe Tony Martin would be convicted, but he was. Therefore what you or I think has been proven to be irrelevant.
As has been said... you come into my house with the intent on doing harm then you pay the consequences.
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