Climate Change treaty....

[ludo]

Gulliver911 said:

GreenV8S said:

Gulliver911 said:

On the TV news channel in Ireland, the presenter last night stated that 2007 was the hottest on record.

It is not.

I'm sure it was ... somewhere. That's weather for you.

They were specifically speaking of global temperatures.

Well according to the Hadley Center/UEA they were wrong then!

[grumbledoak]

BBC said:

This year has been one of the warmest since 1850, despite the cooling influence of La Nina conditions, according to scientists.

Er, wasn't 1850-ish a local minimum ? Pretty much the coldest period for the last 1000 years IIRC.

And I love the comparison with averages from 1961-1990. You'd have a very different answer if you used an average 1920-2000, as the 1930s were hotter than the 1990s. And the medieval period was hotter still for quite a time. But then we wouldn't get the fear.

[turbobloke]

Gulliver911 said:

GreenV8S said:

Gulliver911 said:

On the TV news channel in Ireland, the presenter last night stated that 2007 was the hottest on record.

It is not.

I'm sure it was ... somewhere. That's weather for you.

They were specifically speaking of global temperatures.

Not likely.

Isn't the UK heading for the second hottest year on record?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Guardian/environment/200...

Meanwhile the northern hemisphere, with those records beginning 1880, is getting hot hot hot:

http://www.wcfcourier.com/articles/2007/12/14/news...

Or is it indeed the seventh warmest globally since some convenient recent date - as the WMO says (based on information to the end of November) 2007 is shaping up to be the world's seventh warmest year or record. Pity about the record.

Of course, each of these statements demonstrates a cause-and-effect link with mankind's emissions. In fact none do, readers are expected to assume it's true after being propagandised into becoming a compliant 'useful idiot'.

ETA don't ask about much of the southern hemisphere particularly around 30 south and down, or the troposphere where the enhanced greenhouse effect is supposed to operate...

Edited by turbobloke on Saturday 15th December 20:20

[Blue Meanie]

The proble with these records is that their dates are so very 'helpful'. They exclude wamer periods, and even warmer decades in the last century. All this does is help them creat the panic, and fear that will help them push through their green agenda. They ignore anything that suggests otherwise.

[esselte]

I have a problem with all this now.We've been cutting our output of CO2 for the last few years ( a report said..."The UK produced total greenhouse emissions equivalent to 658.10 million tonnes of CO2 last year. This was down about 15% from the 1990 figure of 775.20 million tonnes....)

So have we seen a corresponding temperature drop?......didn't think so...where is the correlation?

[turbobloke]

esselte said:

I have a problem with all this now.We've been cutting our output of CO2 for the last few years ( a report said..."The UK produced total greenhouse emissions equivalent to 658.10 million tonnes of CO2 last year. This was down about 15% from the 1990 figure of 775.20 million tonnes....)

So have we seen a corresponding temperature drop?......didn't think so...where is the correlation?

So some sneaky divil has been removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere without telling anyone, while fiddling the readings to show a false increase. Then again, the beer in my local has been a bit too fizzy of late, maybe that's it...

[baz1985]

Utter utter waste of time.....it is all beyond human control.

[esselte]

turbobloke said:

esselte said:

I have a problem with all this now.We've been cutting our output of CO2 for the last few years ( a report said..."The UK produced total greenhouse emissions equivalent to 658.10 million tonnes of CO2 last year. This was down about 15% from the 1990 figure of 775.20 million tonnes....)

So have we seen a corresponding temperature drop?......didn't think so...where is the correlation?

So some sneaky divil has been removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere without telling anyone, while fiddling the readings to show a false increase. Then again, the beer in my local has been a bit too fizzy of late, maybe that's it...

I've had a couple as well Bernard... I was just pointing out that this huge country of ours has cut it's CO2 O/P (god knows why) and we haven't seen a "worldwide" temp. drop....this doesn't mean that all this extra tax is in vain does it.....I can't believe our government would try to con us after all

[turbobloke]

esselte said:

turbobloke said:

esselte said:

I have a problem with all this now.We've been cutting our output of CO2 for the last few years ( a report said..."The UK produced total greenhouse emissions equivalent to 658.10 million tonnes of CO2 last year. This was down about 15% from the 1990 figure of 775.20 million tonnes....)

So have we seen a corresponding temperature drop?......didn't think so...where is the correlation?

So some sneaky divil has been removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere without telling anyone, while fiddling the readings to show a false increase. Then again, the beer in my local has been a bit too fizzy of late, maybe that's it...

I've had a couple as well Bernard... I was just pointing out that this huge country of ours has cut it's CO2 O/P (god knows why) and we haven't seen a "worldwide" temp. drop....this doesn't mean that all this extra tax is in vain does it.....I can't believe our government would try to con us after all

I know, I know, they are whiter than white, not a single lie passes their lips, honesty personified, no hidden agendas, we simply MUST pay more and more tax and trust them implicitly that it's justified and won't be wasted, averting global disaster and saving every creature there is.

[King Herald]

Nickthebassist said:

Sadly it seems some idiots still think that global warming isn't real.

I'm one of them idiots

[Blue Meanie]

Global warming may well be real, but man has a very minutely insignificant part of it!

[Maxf]

Blue Meanie said:

Global warming may well be real, but man has a very minutely insignificant part of it!

Thats my view.

I also believe that we are being amazingly arrogant as a race assuming that the current temperature is 'correct' and shouldnt change. A few degrees warmer might actually be better for everyone.

I do think we should all try and be a bit 'greener' but to generally improve the planet as the population increases rather than to solve a crisis which might not be.

Edited by Maxf on Saturday 15th December 23:05

[King Herald]

esselte said:

I have a problem with all this now.We've been cutting our output of CO2 for the last few years ( a report said..."The UK produced total greenhouse emissions equivalent to 658.10 million tonnes of CO2 last year. This was down about 15% from the 1990 figure of 775.20 million tonnes....)

So have we seen a corresponding temperature drop?......didn't think so...where is the correlation?

Because China is doubling their C02 output every three months, and the UK cutting our output to save the world is like pissing in the sea to make the tide come in!

[turbobloke]

King Herald said:

Nickthebassist said:

Sadly it seems some idiots still think that global warming isn't real.

I'm one of them idiots

You're not alone - the list below is widely cited to demonstrate the numbers of climate realists operating inside and outside of the IPCC, though I haven't contacted each one personally to check

Climate change is real. It's been happening for billions of years, to greater extents and faster rates than now, without our help. Global warming and global cooling happen frequently, continually, a static or 'stable' climate is unknown yet even the conservatives these days talk about stabilising the climate, which is a monumentally stupid thing to say. It's these intelligent idiots, and the government's useful idiots, that give ecofascists and lifestyle totalitarians a free run on our freedoms and our quality of life.


Alan Moghissi, Ph.D. Physical Chemistry, Technical University of Karlsruhe, Germany
Aksel Wiin-Nielsen, Professor of Geophysical Science, University of Copenhagen, Denmark
Alfred H. Pekarek, Ph.D. Geology, Associate Professor of Geology, St. Cloud State University, USA
Allan M.R. MacRae, B.Sc., M.Eng., P.Eng, Canada
Andreas Prokoph, B.Sc. Geology, Ph.D. Earth Sciences, University Tubingen, Germany
Anthony R. Lupo, Ph.D. Atmospheric Science, Purdue University, USA
Antonino Zichichi, Professor Emeritus of Advanced Physics, University of Bologna, Italy
Arthur B. Robinson, Ph.D. Chemistry, University of California, San Diego, USA
Arthur Rorsch, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus of Molecular Genetics, Leiden University, The Netherlands
Ben Herman, Ph.D. Atmospheric Sciences, University of Arizona, USA
Bob Durrenberger, Retired Climatologist, Former President of the American Association of State Climatologists, USA
Boris Winterhalter, Ph.D. Geology, Helsinki University, Finland
Bruce N. Ames, Ph.D. BioChemistry, California Institute of Technology, USA
Bruno Wiskel, B.Sc. Honours Geology, University of Albert, Canada
Carl Johan Friedrich (Frits) Böttcher, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus of Physical Chemistry, University of Leiden, The Netherlands
Charles Gelman, B.S. Chemistry, M.S. Public Health, University of Michigan, USA
Chauncey Starr, Ph.D. Physics, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, USA
Chris de Freitas, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Geography and Environmental Science, University of Auckland, New Zealand
Christiaan Frans van Sumere, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus of Biochemistry, University of Gent, Belgium
Christopher Essex, Ph.D. Applied Mathematics Professor, University of Western Ontario, Canada
Christopher Landsea, Ph.D. Atmospheric Science, Colorado State University, USA
Claude Allegre, Ph.D. Physics, University of Paris, France
Clinton H. Sheehan, Ph.D. Physics, University of Western Ontario, Canada
Craig D. Idso, M.S. Agronomy, Ph.D. Geography, Arizona State University, USA
Daniel B. Botkin, Ph.D. Biology, Rutgers University, USA
David Deming, B.S. Geology, Ph.D. Geophysics, University of Utah, USA
David E. Wojick, B.S. Civil Engineering, Ph.D. Mathematical Logic, University of Pittsburgh, USA
David Evans, B.Sc. Applied Mathematics and Physics, M.S. Statistics, Ph.D. Electrical Engineering, Stanford, USA
David G. Aubrey, B.S. Geological Sciences, Ph.D. Oceanography, University of California at San Diego, USA
David J. Bellamy, B.Sc. Botany, Ph.D. Ecology, Durham University, UK
David L. Hill, Ph.D. Physics, Princeton, USA
David Nowell, M.Sc. Meteorology, Royal Meteorological Society, Canada
David R. Legates, Ph.D. Climatology, University of Delaware, USA
Dennis P. Lettenmaier, Ph.D. Professor of Hydrology, University of Washington, USA
Don J. Easterbrook, Ph.D. Geology, University of Washington, USA
Donald G. Baker, Ph.D. Soils, Geology, University of Minnesota, USA
Douglas V. Hoyt, Solar Physicist and Climatologist, Retired, Raytheon, USA
Duncan Wingham, Ph.D. Physics, University of Bath, UK
Eckhard Grimmel, Ph.D. Geography, University of Hamburg, Germany
Edward Wegman, Ph.D. Mathematical Statistics, University of Iowa, USA
Eigil Friis-Christensen, Ph.D. Geophysics, University of Copenhagen, Denmark
Elliot Abrams, M.S. Meteorology, Penn State, USA
Eric S. Posmentier, Adjunct Professor of Earth Sciences, Dartmouth, USA
Fred Michel, B.Sc. Geological Sciences, M.Sc. Earth Sciences, Ph.D. Earth Sciences, University of Waterloo, Canada
Fred W. Decker, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus of Atmospheric Sciences, Oregon State University, USA
Frederick Seitz, Ph.D. Physics, Princeton University, USA
Freeman Dyson, Professor Emeritus, Physics, Princeton, USA
G. Cornelis van Kooten, B.Sc. Geophysics, Ph.D. Agricultural & Resource Economics, Oregon State University, USA
Gabriel T. Csanady, Ph.D. Mechanical Engineering, University of New South Wales, Australia
Garth Paltridge, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus, Institute of Antarctic and Southern Ocean Studies, University of Tasmania, Australia
Gary D. Sharp, Ph.D. Marine Biology, University of California, USA
Gary Novak, M.S. Microbiology, USA
George E. McVehil, B.A. Physics, M.S. Ph.D. Meteorology, AMS Certified Consulting Meteorologist, USA
George H. Taylor, M.S. Meteorology, University of Utah, USA
George Kukla, Micropalentologist, Special Research Scientist of Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University, USA
George V. Chilingarian, Ph.D. Geology, University of Southern California, USA
George Wilhelm Stroke, Ph.D. Physics, University of Paris, France
Gerd-Rainer Weber, Ph.D. Consulting Meteorologist, Germany
Gerhard Gerlich, Ph.D. Physics, Technical University of Braunschweig, Germany
Gerrit J. van der Lingen, PhD Geology, New Zealand
Gordon E. Swaters, Ph.D. Applied Mathematics and Physical Oceanography, University of British Columbia, Canada
Graham Smith, Associate Professor of Geography, University of Western Ontario, Canada
H. Grant (H.G.) Goodell, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus of Environmental Sciences, University of Virginia, USA
Harry N.A. Priem, Professor Emeritus of Isotope and Planetary Geology, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Hendrik Tennekes, Former Director of Research, Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute, The Netherlands
Henrik Svensmark, Solar System Physics, Danish National Space Center, Denmark
Henry R. Linden, Ph.D. Chemical Engineering, Illinois Institute of Technology, USA
Howard C. Hayden, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus of Physics, University of Connecticut, USA
Hugh W. Ellsaesser, Ph.D. Meteorology, Formerly with Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, USA
Ian D. Clark, Professor Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa, Canada
Ian Plimer, Professor of Mining Geology, University of Adelaide, Australia
Indur M. Goklany, Ph.D. Electrical Engineering, Indian Institute of Technology, India
Jack Barrett, Ph.D. Physical Chemistry, Manchester, UK
James O’Brien, Ph.D. Meteorology, Texas A&M University, USA
Ján Veizer, Professor Emeritus, Department of Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa, Canada
Jay H. Lehr, Ph.D. Groundwater Hydrology, University of Arizona, USA
Jennifer Marohasy, Ph.D. Biology, University of Queensland, Australia
Joseph (Joe) P. Sobel, Ph.D. Meteorology, Penn State, USA
Joel Schwartz, B.S. Chemistry, M.S. Planetary Science, California Institute of Technology, USA
John E. Gaynor, M.S. Meteorology, UCLA, USA
John R. Christy, Ph.D. Atmospheric Sciences, University of Illinois, USA
Joseph Conklin, M.S. Meteorology, Rutgers University, USA
Joseph D’Aleo, M.S. Meteorology, University of Wisconsin, USA
Keith D. Hage, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus of Meteorology, University of Alberta, Canada
Keith E. Idso, Ph.D. Botany, Arizona State University, USA
Kelvin Kemm, Ph.D. Nuclear Physics, Natal University, South Africa
Kenneth E.F. Watt, Ph.D. Zoology, University of Chicago, USA
Khabibullo Abdussamatov, Ph.D. Astrophysicist, The University of Leningrad, Russia
Klaus Wyrtki, Ph.D. Oceanography, Physics, Mathematics, University of Kiel, Germany
Lee C. Gerhard, Ph.D. Geology, University of Kansas, USA
Luboš Motl, Ph.D. Theoretical Physicist, Harvard, USA
Madhav Khandekar, Ph.D. Meteorology, Florida State University, USA
Manik Talwani, Ph.D. Physics, Columbia University, USA
Marcel Leroux, Professor Emeritus of Climatology, University of Lyon, France
Mel Goldstein, Ph.D. Meteorology, NYU, USA
Michael Crichton, A.B. Anthropology, M.D. Harvard, USA
Michael D. Griffin, B.S. Physics, M.S. Applied Physics, Ph.D. Aerospace Engineering, University of Maryland, USA
Michael Savage, B.S. Biology, M.S. Anthropology, M.S. Ethnobotany, Ph.D. Nutritional Ethnomedicine, USA
Michael R. Fox, Ph.D. Physical Chemistry, University of Washington, USA
Michel Salomon, M.D. University of Paris, Director, International Centre for Scientific Ecology, France
Neil Frank, Ph.D. Meteorology, Florida State University, USA
Nils-Axel Mörner, Professor Emeritus of Palegeophysics and Geodynamics, Stockholm University, Sweden
Nir J. Shaviv, Ph.D. Astrophysicist, Israel Institute of Technology, Israel
Norman Brown, Professor Emeritus of Chemistry, University of Ulster, UK
Ola M. Johannessen, Professor, Nansen Environmental and Remote Sensing Center, Norway
Olavi Kärner, Ph.D. Senior Research Associate, Atmospheric Sensing Group, Tartu Astrophysical Observatory, Estonia
Oliver W. Frauenfeld, Ph.D. Environmental Sciences, University of Virginia, USA
Paavo Siitam, M.Sc. Agronomist, Canada
Paul Copper, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus of Earth Sciences, Laurentian University, Canada
Paul Driessen, B.A. Geology and Field Ecology, Lawrence University, USA
Paul Reiter, Professor of Medical Entomology, Pasteur Institute, France
Patrick J. Michaels, Ph.D. Ecological Climatology, University of Wisconsin-Madison, USA
Patrick Moore, B.Sc. Forest Biology, Ph.D. Ecology, University of British Columbia, Canada
Petr Chylek, Ph.D. Physics, University of California, USA
Philip Stott, Professor Emeritus, Department of Biogeography, University of London, UK
Piers Corbyn, B.Sc Physics, M.Sc Astrophysics, Queen Mary College, UK
R. Timothy (Tim) Patterson, Ph.D. Professor of Geology, Carleton University, Canada
Randall Cerveny, Ph.D. Geography, University of Nebraska, USA
Reid A. Bryson, B.A. Geology, Ph.D. Meteorology, University of Chicago, USA
Richard C. Willson, Ph.D. Atmospheric Sciences, University of California Los Angeles, USA
Richard S. Courtney, Ph.D. Geography, The Ohio State University, USA
Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT, USA
Roger A. Pielke (Sr.), Ph.D. Meteorology, Penn State, USA
Rob Scagel, M.Sc., Forest Microclimate Specialist, Canada
Robin Vaughan, Ph.D. Physics, Nottingham University, UK
Robert C. Balling Jr., Ph.D. Professor of Climatology, Arizona State University, USA
Robert C. Whitten, Physicist, Retired Research Scientist, NASA, USA
Robert Giegengack, Ph.D. Geology, Yale, USA
Robert H. Essenhigh, M.S. Natural Sciences, Ph.D. Chemical Engineering, University of Sheffield, UK
Robert Johnston, M.S. Physics, B.A. Astronomy, USA
Robert L. Kovach, Professor of Geophysics, Stanford University, USA
Robert (Bob) M. Carter, B.Sc. Geology, Ph.D. Paleontology, University of Cambridge, Australia
Roy Spencer, Ph.D. Meteorology, University of Wisconsin, USA
S. Fred Singer, Ph.D. Physics, Princeton University, USA
Sallie Baliunas, Ph.D. Astrophysics, Harvard, USA
Sherwood B. Idso, Ph.D. Soil Science, University of Minnesota, USA
Simon C. Brassell, B.Sc. Chemistry & Geology, Ph.D. Organic Geochemistry, University of Bristol, UK
Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen, Ph.D. Department of Geography, University of Hull, UK
Steve Milloy, B.A. Natural Sciences, M.S. Health Sciences, Johns Hopkins University, USA
Stephen McIntyre, B.Sc. Mathematics, University of Toronto, Canada
Sylvan H. Wittwer, Ph.D. Horticulture, University of Missouri, USA
Syun-Ichi Akasofu, Ph.D. Geophysics, University of Alaska, USA
Tad S. Murty, Ph.D. Oceanography and Meteorology, University of Chicago, USA
Theodore Landscheidt PhD
Thomas Schmidlin, Ph.D. Professor of Geography, Kent State University, USA
Timothy (Tim) F. Ball, Ph.D. Geography, Historical Climatology, University of London, UK
Tom Harris, B. Eng. M. Eng. Mechanical Engineering (thermo-fluids), Canada
Tom V. Segalstad, B.S. Geology, University of Oslo, Norway
Vern Harnapp, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus of Geography, University of Akron
Vincent Gray, Ph.D. Physical Chemistry, Cambridge University, UK
W. Dennis Clark, Ph.D. Botany, Sacramento State College, USA
Wibjorn Karlen, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology, Stockholm University, Sweden
William B. Hubbard, Ph.D. Professor of Planetary Atmospheres, University of Arizona, USA
William Cotton, M.S. Atmospheric Science, Ph.D. Meteorology, Pennsylvania State University, USA
William E. Reifsnyder, B.S. Meteorology, M.S. Ph.D. Forestry, Yale, USA
William J.R. Alexander, Professor Emeritus, Department of Civil and Biosystems Engineering, University of Pretoria, South Africa
William (Bill) M. Gray, M.S. Meteorology, Ph.D. Geophysical Sciences, University of Chicago, USA
Willie Soon, Ph.D. Astrophysics, Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, USA

[tamore]

i love all the predictions that MMGW is going to cause a catastrophy. lust like i enjoyed the hot dry summer which was predicted.

we haven't got a scooby what the weather's going to do for the next 6 months, so how the hell can anyone start to tell me what's going to be happening in 2050!

[ludo]

King Herald said:

esselte said:

I have a problem with all this now.We've been cutting our output of CO2 for the last few years ( a report said..."The UK produced total greenhouse emissions equivalent to 658.10 million tonnes of CO2 last year. This was down about 15% from the 1990 figure of 775.20 million tonnes....)

So have we seen a corresponding temperature drop?......didn't think so...where is the correlation?

Because China is doubling their C02 output every three months,

do you have a reference for that, the closest I can find is for CO2 from coal to double by 2030, which is rather slower

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071120104545.htm 

King Harald said:

and the UK cutting our output to save the world is like pissing in the sea to make the tide come in!

[turbobloke]

From the WRI



The dashed line is looking closer to it, China overtook the USA already, broadsheet articles on this are here and here

[ludo]

turbobloke said:

From the WRI



The dashed line is looking closer to it, China overtook the USA already, broadsheet articles on this are here and here

cheers, that is pretty much what I suspected. Not that it matters, I have no faith that govenments would take meaningful action even if the scientific case were absolutely unequivocal.

[turbobloke]

ludo said:

that is pretty much what I suspected. Not that it matters, I have no faith that govenments would take meaningful action even if the scientific case were absolutely unequivocal.

Not only that, working towards a target of over 540 new power stations in China, to meet their growing energy demand, there have been between one and two opening each week on average - and our own carbon dioxide hating government has supported the contruction of coal fired power stations in China and elswewhere in Asia to the tune of hundreds of millions of £ of taxpayers' money via subsidies.

[ludo]

turbobloke said:

ludo said:

that is pretty much what I suspected. Not that it matters, I have no faith that govenments would take meaningful action even if the scientific case were absolutely unequivocal.

Not only that, working towards a target of over 540 new power stations in China, to meet their growing energy demand, there have been between one and two opening each week on average - and our own carbon dioxide hating government has supported the contruction of coal fired power stations in China and elswewhere in Asia to the tune of hundreds of millions of £ of taxpayers' money via subsidies.

We could always help them curb their emissions by bringing our manufacturing back home