Discussion
If weight is your worrry, and following on from a recent report that UK men are going pear shaped, then the easiest thing would be to concerntrate on weight reduction for the driver, and passenger.
I don't beleive that there is a whole lot to be saved in an S1 Elise, without spending quite large amounts on 'special' components.
I don't beleive that there is a whole lot to be saved in an S1 Elise, without spending quite large amounts on 'special' components.
I had a ride in the passenger seat of a well sorted Elise 190 track car at Laguna Seca raceway. The braking was so violent that the full race harness hurt me. The driver waited until the last marker before braking and the car just stopped. You couldn't brake that hard in a road car with road seatbelts, you'd be out of the seat. I have the Lotus motorsport pads and discs (I think the same as the 190) but I have road tires. No fade, but its clear to me that its the rubber that limits the braking ability of the car. It doesn't need heavier calipers or discs.
I used to have a '98 Elise with the MMC discs, they were lethal in the wet, no bite and a delay before the water cleared, then they would lock up. I really wanted ABS with that car, had a few near misses.... The drilled iron discs are more progressive and work well in the wet.
quote:
The best way to slow the elise more is to add better disks and calipers.
The Elise does not require better discs & calipers to slow it down! People asume that because an Elise does not have a brake servo, thus requiring more peddle pressure, that this is a bad thing & means the brakes are not up to the job.
Have a look at the brakes on a Sports 2000, Formula First or Formula Ford racing car, there not that big & they don't require a servo.
If you can lock the wheels, then the brakes are OK, rember the brakes are only as good as the tyres!
Try pressing the peddle harder!
quote:
If you can lock the wheels, then the brakes are OK, rember the brakes are only as good as the tyres!
What rubbish, good brakes allow you to apply good pressure in all conditions. You can lock brakes in virtually all cars but the secret is NOT to lock your brakes. Perhaps you may have noticed that the brakes are not an on/off switch they are designed to do more than just stop the car. The vast majority of time you want to scrub speed off prior to corners. How well they do that is a function of the brakes, based on their grip and dissipation of heat. Stamping on the brakes is not the same as light pressure with good brakes. The balance of the car is completely different, as is their stopping distances (4 wheels 60/40% split is better than 4 wheels 100/0% split effectively braking on just 2 wheels).
Using your argument F1 cars would be just as good at breaking with steel disks as carbon fibre (hey they have the same tyres, both brakes can lock the wheels instantly). Clearly that is not the case.
In the wet stoping power of the S1 was awful, in fact I believe there was even a recall of some of them to add a disk guard for the water. Tips such as dry your disks prior to approaching you braking in the wet was also given out.
>> Edited by smeagol on Monday 29th July 13:32
quote:
What rubbish, good brakes allow you to apply good pressure in all conditions. You can lock brakes in virtually all cars but the secret is NOT to lock your brakes. Perhaps you may have noticed that the brakes are not an on/off switch they are designed to do more than just stop the car. The vast majority of time you want to scrub speed off prior to corners. How well they do that is a function of the brakes, based on their grip and dissipation of heat. Stamping on the brakes is not the same as light pressure with good brakes. The balance of the car is completely different, as is their stopping distances (4 wheels 60/40% split is better than 4 wheels 100/0% split effectively braking on just 2 wheels).
Whew, that was intense
. . . perhaps some real world data would help . . . The progressive nature of brakes is effected by many things, the type of flexible hoses, the brake pad material but generally not the size of the brakes. An S1 Elise with standard steel disks and decent pads can lap fast tracks all day long with a lovely progressive pedal action.
quote:
In the wet stoping power of the S1 was awful, in fact I believe there was even a recall of some of them to add a disk guard for the water. Tips such as dry your disks prior to approaching you braking in the wet was also given out.
Perhaps some clarification, just to be correct, S1 Elises fitted with MMC disks suffer from wet weather braking problems, S1 Elises with steel disks do not. I know this because I lapped KnockhillCircuit in Scotland for four hours in torrential rain in my Elise last week, and have no normal road dricing problems in the wet, I have steel disks.
I have also spent over 8 hours lapping the same circuit (hard on brakes) in the dry in the last couple of months and have no braking problems, whatsoever.
Standard disks, steel braided hoses (for feel) and pagid pads (for longevity).
I think you misunderstand the Elise or there's something very wrong with yours (if you have one) if you think the Elise has a brake problem.
Learn how to use the brakes and you'll find they are more than up to the job, however without ABS you may punt it in a panic situation . . . IMHO it takes near superhuman composure to cadence brake on a wet wintery road whilst facing imminent death . . . Personally, I made the decision that I was happy without ABS when I shelled out for the car, you make your choices. My other car has ABS.
Fd
quote:
Perhaps some clarification, just to be correct, S1 Elises fitted with MMC disks suffer from wet weather braking problems, S1 Elises with steel disks do not. I know this because I lapped KnockhillCircuit in Scotland for four hours in torrential rain in my Elise last week, and have no normal road dricing problems in the wet, I have steel disks.
I have also spent over 8 hours lapping the same circuit (hard on brakes) in the dry in the last couple of months and have no braking problems, whatsoever.
Standard disks, steel braided hoses (for feel) and pagid pads (for longevity).
Thanks for that, I just knew an owner that had his recalled at the time due to their scary wet braking. I was quoting from his experiences and what other people have said on this and other boards.
quote:
I think you misunderstand the Elise or there's something very wrong with yours (if you have one) if you think the Elise has a brake problem.
I don't, I think the Elise brakes are excellent (certainly when I have played with them on track and demonstrations, I've had no complaints). At Hethel on track the driver next to me said "theres a chicane ahead" as I belted down the second straight and the brakes hauled me up nicely. The comment I came back with was becuase of "if you can lock your wheels your brakes are ok" comment which isn't true for any make of car.
quote:
Learn how to use the brakes and you'll find they are more than up to the job, however without ABS you may punt it in a panic situation . . . IMHO it takes near superhuman composure to cadence brake on a wet wintery road whilst facing imminent death . . . Personally, I made the decision that I was happy without ABS when I shelled out for the car, you make your choices. My other car has ABS.
Quite agree ABS is excellent in the wet and I have no problem with them on the new Elise.
I think you misunderstood the post I wasn't saying the Elise brakes were bad just critising the comment that if you can lock your wheels then the brakes are fine and cannot/not-needed to be improved. I drove the M100 Elan and it had good brakes you could lock up all wheels instantly but The first mod that people recommended was upgraded brakes.
quote:
I know this because I lapped Knockhill Circuit in Scotland for four hours in torrential rain in my Elise last week, and have no normal road dricing problems in the wet, I have steel disks.
Thought I saw a Pistonheads sticker at Knockhill a week last Saturday - I was there in my Bro's Black Exige - no problems stopping apart from in the middle of the rivers at the end of the pitstraight and before Clarks
I was thinking that an anchor might have been more appropriate.... ahh Scottish summers!!
I know the Elise brakes are perfect but when i started this post i was arguing about ABS which would stop the ELise being a total drivers car so i think if the goverment want to make the Elise brake better which it dosent need they could Add better Disks and 6 pin calipers which would apply braking pressure across the disk more evenly allowing the Elise to be stopped by putting a steady amount of pressuere on the pedal but the brakes could be made to lock if you were on the track or in the country where nobody cares if you powerslide and skid about
deep breath:
What the hell!? Not sure if I've understood your long sentence correctly but I picked up a couple of points:
1. Why would the Government have any interest in the Elise or it's brakes?
2. How will allowing the driver to put a steady amount of pressure on the pedal improve anything? You need to constantly adjust the amount of pressure you put on the pedal as your speed decreases and road conditions change in order to slow the wheels as much as possible without locking.
3. What makes you think powersliding and skidding -- both of which are very poor ways of getting about quickly and safely -- are any more acceptible in the country than anywhere else?
4. How old are you? What do you drive?
quote:
I know the Elise brakes are perfect but when i started this post i was arguing about ABS which would stop the ELise being a total drivers car so i think if the goverment want to make the Elise brake better which it dosent need they could Add better Disks and 6 pin calipers which would apply braking pressure across the disk more evenly allowing the Elise to be stopped by putting a steady amount of pressuere on the pedal but the brakes could be made to lock if you were on the track or in the country where nobody cares if you powerslide and skid about
What the hell!? Not sure if I've understood your long sentence correctly but I picked up a couple of points:
1. Why would the Government have any interest in the Elise or it's brakes?
2. How will allowing the driver to put a steady amount of pressure on the pedal improve anything? You need to constantly adjust the amount of pressure you put on the pedal as your speed decreases and road conditions change in order to slow the wheels as much as possible without locking.
3. What makes you think powersliding and skidding -- both of which are very poor ways of getting about quickly and safely -- are any more acceptible in the country than anywhere else?
4. How old are you? What do you drive?
I prefer the idea of non assist race style brakes, purely from a purist point of view. The fewer gizmos and less mass on a car of this type seems more appropriate.
Has anyone read any reviews on the upgraded brake packages available? AP do a race kit and TAROX do a 6 pot caliper kit. Thes both appeal to me.
Has anyone read any reviews on the upgraded brake packages available? AP do a race kit and TAROX do a 6 pot caliper kit. Thes both appeal to me.
tailslider, if you search
www.british-cars.co.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=lotusbbs&mode=tlist&subject=2050
you'll find several threads devoted to the subject of brake upgrades. The general consensus as it stands is that the calipers and discs need no upgrading at all, and that the most sensible upgrade is to exchange the pads only. Common choices are Pagid RS4-2's or RS15s.
>> Edited by Bombjack on Tuesday 30th July 15:54
www.british-cars.co.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=lotusbbs&mode=tlist&subject=2050
you'll find several threads devoted to the subject of brake upgrades. The general consensus as it stands is that the calipers and discs need no upgrading at all, and that the most sensible upgrade is to exchange the pads only. Common choices are Pagid RS4-2's or RS15s.
>> Edited by Bombjack on Tuesday 30th July 15:54
quote:
Thought I saw a Pistonheads sticker at Knockhill a week last Saturday - I was there in my Bro's Black Exige - no problems stopping apart from in the middle of the rivers at the end of the pitstraight and before Clarks
I was thinking that an anchor might have been more appropriate.... ahh Scottish summers!!
Yeah, powerboating would be more like it, but highly enjoyable, braking from 100 for the hairpin through the puddles was great fun
Powersliding out of the hairpin after was even better
quote:
Add better Disks and 6 pin calipers which would apply braking pressure across the disk more evenly allowing the Elise to be stopped by putting a steady amount of pressuere on the pedal
Don't understand, what problem are you trying to solve by changing the disks/calipers ?
pedal force required to stop the car (which is high in the elise because of no servo), pedal feel (which can be tuned with different pads, etc), track longevity / thermal capacity ? (standard steel disks and uprated pads are sufficient, people race on them), or what ?
Regardless, IMHO ABS could well save your life or at least a big insurance claim, probably only weighs a few kilos and if it can be made to work in a non intrusive manner then I'd have no problem having it on my car, that being said I don't and I don't have a problem with that either.
Fd
quite agree Furgus hence the WTF
Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff