Discussion
The Goverment want to save lifes for some reason by making cars brake quicker.
The soulution is ABS
I dont want ABS or any driver aids on the Elise because that is not what the Elise is about.
The only other way is to upgrade the Elises brakes and a good way is changing the Disks and Calipers.
6 pin calipers would apply more even braking pressure over the Disk
In my Last post some of you mis understood and i want to clarify that if you steadily apply more pressure as the car slows it will stop quicker and if there are better brakes which there dont need to be but if there were the car would stop Quicker
The soulution is ABS
I dont want ABS or any driver aids on the Elise because that is not what the Elise is about.
The only other way is to upgrade the Elises brakes and a good way is changing the Disks and Calipers.
6 pin calipers would apply more even braking pressure over the Disk
In my Last post some of you mis understood and i want to clarify that if you steadily apply more pressure as the car slows it will stop quicker and if there are better brakes which there dont need to be but if there were the car would stop Quicker
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The Goverment want to save lifes for some reason by making cars brake quicker.
I think the government wants us to stop us driving quickly because they are deluded into thinking speed kills.
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The only other way is to upgrade the Elises brakes and a good way is changing the Disks and Calipers.
Errrr... hello!! Read the rest of this thread I think you'll find this isn't the way to go!!
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In my Last post some of you mis understood and i want to clarify that if you steadily apply more pressure as the car slows it will stop quicker and if there are better brakes which there dont need to be but if there were the car would stop Quicker
To be honest with you I feel even more confused than ever! You aren't mates with a guy called 'Chassis' are you? I had the same reaction when reading his posts.
quote:
The Goverment want to save lifes for some reason by making cars brake quicker.
The soulution is ABS
I dont want ABS or any driver aids on the Elise because that is not what the Elise is about.
The only other way is to upgrade the Elises brakes and a good way is changing the Disks and Calipers.
6 pin calipers would apply more even braking pressure over the Disk
In my Last post some of you mis understood and i want to clarify that if you steadily apply more pressure as the car slows it will stop quicker and if there are better brakes which there dont need to be but if there were the car would stop Quicker
I expect that if ABS was mandatory on new cars, then you could fit ABS to an elise without changing the disks or calipers.
As has been discussed, the standard steel disks are more than up to very hard road use, and with a pad change they are more than capable on the track.
There's no need to change the disks or calipers for bigger ones, because the current ones are big enough already.
Fd
I know but apparantley the Goverment want to make cars able to stop quicker and not lock the wheels .
One way is to put 6 pin calipers so braking pressure is applied evenly over more of the disk
Do you really want me to try to explain it again
you can increase the speed you apply pressure on the brakes without locking the wheels with better calipers
Who is Chassis no sorry never heard of him
One way is to put 6 pin calipers so braking pressure is applied evenly over more of the disk
Do you really want me to try to explain it again
you can increase the speed you apply pressure on the brakes without locking the wheels with better calipers
Who is Chassis no sorry never heard of him
I'm interested in an earlier comment about formula 1 and the carbon disks they have.
I had always assumed that if you have brakes that are capable of stopping the wheels in all conditions then you had more than adequate brakes. I thought the reason that the F1 bunch went to Carbon disks was because after the initial braking, the steel disks were too hot to allow you to stop the wheels, and therefore were not adequate brakes.
Someone said on here that the switch to carbon brakes allowed more feel and that both steel and carbon brakes could stop the wheel. I find it amazing that you can more than half your braking distance from 200mph simply on feel of brakes. Can anyone else confirm this?
Steve
I had always assumed that if you have brakes that are capable of stopping the wheels in all conditions then you had more than adequate brakes. I thought the reason that the F1 bunch went to Carbon disks was because after the initial braking, the steel disks were too hot to allow you to stop the wheels, and therefore were not adequate brakes.
Someone said on here that the switch to carbon brakes allowed more feel and that both steel and carbon brakes could stop the wheel. I find it amazing that you can more than half your braking distance from 200mph simply on feel of brakes. Can anyone else confirm this?
Steve
The new Ferrari Enzo is the first production car with carbon fibre brakes. The main problems with these particular type of brakes were the price of production, the noise generated by them and also the fact they needed to be red hot to really stop the car.
As you can see these factors are fine for Formula 1 but for a production car these issues had to be addressed. Ferrari claim to have sorted this out now but not owning an 'Enzo' myself (I wish!!
) I can't say much about feel or such like.
If anyone wants to lend me one for a blat round a track I'd be happy to..
As you can see these factors are fine for Formula 1 but for a production car these issues had to be addressed. Ferrari claim to have sorted this out now but not owning an 'Enzo' myself (I wish!!
) I can't say much about feel or such like. If anyone wants to lend me one for a blat round a track I'd be happy to..
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I'm interested in an earlier comment about formula 1 and the carbon disks they have.
I had always assumed that if you have brakes that are capable of stopping the wheels in all conditions then you had more than adequate brakes. I thought the reason that the F1 bunch went to Carbon disks was because after the initial braking, the steel disks were too hot to allow you to stop the wheels, and therefore were not adequate brakes.
No montoya used steel brakes on his car when he first drove in F1. (he prefered the feel) the brakes simply aren't as good though
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Someone said on here that the switch to carbon brakes allowed more feel and that both steel and carbon brakes could stop the wheel. I find it amazing that you can more than half your braking distance from 200mph simply on feel of brakes. Can anyone else confirm this?
Actually no I didn't say it was due to feel I said it was that they were better brakes. The argument was that if you can lock wheels then your brakes were ok, which isn't true the balance of the car under braking is very important. When you lock the wheels you also shove the balance forward making grip on the rear tyres less hence reducing braking capacity. This is why F1 cars go wide when they "lock up". Good brakes is to have maximum pressure whilst still having the wheels go round. Carbon fibre allow greater pressure than steel (due to heat disipation as you said), hence they are better brakes.
The amount of retardation is limited by the tyres presuming you can stop the wheel turning, there are very few cars that don't meet this criteria, however there is a little more to 'good' brakes than that . . .
You have to be able to keep the wheel turning, right at the limit of tyre adhesion (feel, modulation and consistency in the brakes retardation, suspension setup, weight distribution, etc all effect this), you have to be able to dissipate the energy from repeated stops (thermal capacity, cooling, pad compound, fluid selection, etc).
Simply slapping bigger brakes on a car may not make any difference to how fast you can stop it.
Most people fit bigger brakes to road sportscars because the brakes cannot deal with the repeated stops that a track environment demands, or so it looks better.
So ultimately this does 'stop the car better', because the car wouldn't be able to stop at all after a couple of track laps.
On a steel disked Elise, for example, this is not a problem with the correct pad choice. Hence all the discussion around why fitting 6pot calipers will not solve any problems.
Fd
You have to be able to keep the wheel turning, right at the limit of tyre adhesion (feel, modulation and consistency in the brakes retardation, suspension setup, weight distribution, etc all effect this), you have to be able to dissipate the energy from repeated stops (thermal capacity, cooling, pad compound, fluid selection, etc).
Simply slapping bigger brakes on a car may not make any difference to how fast you can stop it.
Most people fit bigger brakes to road sportscars because the brakes cannot deal with the repeated stops that a track environment demands, or so it looks better.
So ultimately this does 'stop the car better', because the car wouldn't be able to stop at all after a couple of track laps.
On a steel disked Elise, for example, this is not a problem with the correct pad choice. Hence all the discussion around why fitting 6pot calipers will not solve any problems.
Fd
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Actually no I didn't say it was due to feel I said it was that they were better brakes. The argument was that if you can lock wheels then your brakes were ok, which isn't true the balance of the car under braking is very important.
Agreed, although I'm not sure that's taking the original quote in context. The author was making a point about maximum applicable braking force against a claimed need to get bigger disks or 6 pot calipers. In that context he was correct - if you can lock the wheels you have enough braking available.
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When you lock the wheels you also shove the balance forward making grip on the rear tyres less hence reducing braking capacity. This is why F1 cars go wide when they "lock up".
This isn't right. Weight transference forwards occurs purely due to the deceleration that braking causes. Locking the wheels reduces braking capacity because a rotating wheel has a greater frictive capability than a locked one.
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Good brakes is to have maximum pressure whilst still having the wheels go round. Carbon fibre allow greater pressure than steel (due to heat disipation as you said), hence they are better brakes.
Not sure what you mean by this. However I was under the impression that carbon brakes were better on F1 cars for three reasons: they work best at high temperatures, which are inevitable under race use; they are considerably lighter, which gives a useful reduction in unsprung mass; and they last longer.
Thanks, I think that answers my question....
the best brakes allow the driver to brake up to the limit of tyre adhesion for the entire braking duration, and for multiple braking events on a track.
For Formula 1 cars these are carbon fibre disks. For an Elise the supplied brakes are adequate for a track day with changed pads....
Steve
the best brakes allow the driver to brake up to the limit of tyre adhesion for the entire braking duration, and for multiple braking events on a track.
For Formula 1 cars these are carbon fibre disks. For an Elise the supplied brakes are adequate for a track day with changed pads....
Steve
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This isn't right. Weight transference forwards occurs purely due to the deceleration that braking causes.
Locking the wheels reduces braking capacity because a rotating wheel has a greater frictive capability than a locked one.
Thanks Bombjack thats what I was getting at in my original post but couldn't put it in words. You're quite right. Of course we haven't mentioned the use of gears and chassis/suspension in helping to balance the car braking to reduce weight transferance. This is definately a strong point of the Elise, it feels so settled approaching corners under breaking.
The original part of the post was in responce to
"If you can lock the wheels, then the brakes are OK, rember the brakes are only as good as the tyres!" which isn't true, there are so many factors.
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This isn't right. Weight transference forwards occurs purely due to the deceleration that braking causes. Locking the wheels reduces braking capacity because a rotating wheel has a greater frictive capability than a locked one.
Or . . .
The static (or near static) coefficient of friction (not skidding) between the tyre and the road is greater than the dynamic coefficient of friction (skidding). The tyres contact patch is at zero speed relative to the road when the tyre is not skidding, this (or close to this) is where you have the most friction, regardless of braking, accelleration, cornering, etc . . .
simple really
Fd
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