S1 vs S2 on limit behaviour differences

[RobM77]

TIPPER said:

RobM77 said:

TIPPER said:

RobM77 said:

Scuffers said:

other bit to consider is nobody runs them at 160 ride hight, and (to a point) lowering them with some rake reduces this somewhat...

With some modifications one could in effect turn an S1 into an S2. Lower, stiffer and wider are all perfectly doable. Slap a wing on the back and a splitter on the front and the aero would change too.

My S1 is lower (100/110), stiffer (400/475) and wider tracked (only just though due to 195/225 tyres). Don't know how it handles compared to a 'stock' S2 though as I've never driven one on track. I can tell you that my car is very pointy but also very stable (if I can catch it - most of the time - then it must be!).

I expect it'd be quite different to an S2 because the S2 is road tuned by the factory. Being a 100% (ok, 90%!) road user, I went for the standard S2 because I wanted a road car expertly tuned by Lotus. It's a different matter if you track your car of course; mind you, I never really found the standard suspension lacking on track either. All I can really comment on is standard S1 vs standard S2, for which I prefer the S2.

For sure, but I wonder how many (enthusiast owned) cars run on factory settings?
When I first got my S12 it was a fun thing but readily did the under/oversteer thing (or spin on track). Some driver mods followed by suspension work seems to have led to a car that doesn't do understeer and seems nicely neutral (a better driver might disagree though - suits me for now!).

I'm certainly a keen Lotus enthusiast, and never intend to sell my car so resale isn't a concern, but I run on the factory settings with factory springs, dampers, ARBs etc. Firstly, because I like them and secondly, because having learnt about the factory's ride and handling development, I trust months of their obsessive development over a small team or suspension manufacturers limited findings. I would change them though if I was doing a lot of trackdays, but for my 90% road use they're just perfect as they are

[Scuffers]

RobM77 said:

I'm certainly a keen Lotus enthusiast, and never intend to sell my car so resale isn't a concern, but I run on the factory settings with factory springs, dampers, ARBs etc. Firstly, because I like them and secondly, because having learnt about the factory's ride and handling development, I trust months of their obsessive development over a small team or suspension manufacturers limited findings. I would change them though if I was doing a lot of trackdays, but for my 90% road use they're just perfect as they are

it's hard to know where to start when people make statements like this.

all you are doing is showing a level of ignorance beyond belief...

you don;t think the OEM setup does not cut significant corners in both cost and having to be so generic for all the different markets that it can't be improved on?

why do you think Lotus sell Ohlins as an upgrade if the OEM Bilstiens are so perfect?

[RobM77]

Scuffers said:

RobM77 said:

I'm certainly a keen Lotus enthusiast, and never intend to sell my car so resale isn't a concern, but I run on the factory settings with factory springs, dampers, ARBs etc. Firstly, because I like them and secondly, because having learnt about the factory's ride and handling development, I trust months of their obsessive development over a small team or suspension manufacturers limited findings. I would change them though if I was doing a lot of trackdays, but for my 90% road use they're just perfect as they are

it's hard to know where to start when people make statements like this.

all you are doing is showing a level of ignorance beyond belief...

you don;t think the OEM setup does not cut significant corners in both cost and having to be so generic for all the different markets that it can't be improved on?

why do you think Lotus sell Ohlins as an upgrade if the OEM Bilstiens are so perfect?

I presume you're just trolling, but if you really think my statement is "ignorant beyond belief" then I am utterly stunned. Where on earth do I start in a response? Should I even bother?!! After all, you've already claimed two things as fact that you couldn't back up with figures, references or links. Eventually you backed up one of your claims with some quick calculations, but still didn't compare them with anything else to make your point (how do we know whether the 10-15kg difference front to rear is significant? For example, what happens if you back off the throttle in a corner, what's the equivalent difference then?), and the CofG "fact" that you claimed remains as just an empty claim, with no references or numbers to support your statement at all. What on earth makes you think you can just say things like that and fool us into thinking you know what you're talking about?! I'm not saying where the CofG is on either car because I simply don't know - if you do know, then tell us where you heard it and what the numbers are.

Anyway, back to your ludicrous statement above - it's not just about who makes the suspension (Ohlins, Bilstein etc) but who tunes it. I'm not sure how much you know about suspension, but I'd recommend you hit Google and maybe some books. The engineers at Lotus spend months tuning the spring rates, tyre pressures, damper settings etc etc. For sure, the Ohlins are probably better than the Bilsteins, but for me to say that I'm happy with all their hard work for my completely typical use of my Elise is in what way ignorant?! Don't be so utterly ridiculous.

[Scuffers]

Just lost for words...

I just love being berated by somebbody that has absolutly zero grasp of the subject, and yet seems to think they know what they are talking about.

sorry I don't have every piece of data at my fingertips, but as I am somewhat far from home and working of a lapdog, sometimes it's not possible to pull things up at a moments notice, this does not mean however, that I have not doing the calcs etc,

Now, I am sure you will just carry on beliving what you want to, makes sod all odds to me if you want to live in somekind of fantasy world, in the mean time, I'll keep working on developing enhancments for the Elise including springs, dampers, wishbones, uprights, brakes, engines, gearboxes, etc etc etc. (and clearly I do all this without having a clue about the subject!)

[RobM77]

Scuffers said:

Just lost for words...

I just love being berated by somebbody that has absolutly zero grasp of the subject, and yet seems to think they know what they are talking about.

sorry I don't have every piece of data at my fingertips, but as I am somewhat far from home and working of a lapdog, sometimes it's not possible to pull things up at a moments notice, this does not mean however, that I have not doing the calcs etc,

Now, I am sure you will just carry on beliving what you want to, makes sod all odds to me if you want to live in somekind of fantasy world, in the mean time, I'll keep working on developing enhancments for the Elise including springs, dampers, wishbones, uprights, brakes, engines, gearboxes, etc etc etc. (and clearly I do all this without having a clue about the subject!)

I thought you might have a vested interest in this

Believe me, I know my stuff when it comes to suspension and car setup and whilst I'm not saying that you don't, just like your CofG comments you shouldn't make definitive statements about people you don't know much about.

Regarding those CofG comments, if you can't produce the figures, you could at least quote a source (e.g. Mr X from the factory told me this once). It sounds strange to everyone reading you see, because the S2 runs lower than the S1 and for many years ran the same engine and engine mounting points... I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're going to need to back those claims up because at the very least they sound wrong. Equally, whilst the aero comparison of S1 and S2 amounts to someone pushing on both ends of the S2 and heaving up with both arms on the end of the S1, to believe your statement we need to understand what magnitude of forces will affect the car. Again, you may well be right, but if I followed an Elise through a corner in a van, hung out the back of the van and pulled hard upwards on the rear of the car I'm sure the driver would at least feel it! The factory must have had a reason to change the aero. You need to come up with some jolly solid evidence to prove otherwise.

If you put your [completely understandable and professional] bias to one side though you should look at what you're saying here and how utterly daft it sounds. Lotus are the undisputed kings of ride and handling setup in the automotive world. In addition to that, the Elise (S1 and S2) is an award winning car that is universally praised for its peerless ride and handling. Keeping those facts in mind, your reaction to my statement that I'm "happy" with the suspension on my standard S2 for road use is one of the most arrogant and ill-informed things I've ever heard. You could have said that in your personal opinion you disagree and find the standard setup lacks, but instead you chose to publically insult me because I like the way my car handles! In saying that I'm happy with it, I'm agreeing with every car journalist and respected automotive expert in the field, and I'm also agreeing with the whole team involved in the chassis development and sign off at Lotus. You are entitled to your own opinion, but it's a little ridiculous to call me ignorant for holding the opinion that I do!

As a final comment, you're throwing around comments you can't back up with facts, and you're also happy to tell an experienced racing driver that he knows nothing about suspension setup. Do you really think that people will want to buy your products now you've shown yourself up in this light?

Edited by RobM77 on Sunday 18th October 20:07

[LivinLaVidaLotus]

I'm with Scuffers here, I can see what you're saying Rob, but if you think about it logically then I'm sure you'll see what Scuffers is getting at.

Lotus are building a car to a budget - yes they have fantastic ride and handling development, but they are working with a limited set of "tools" constrained by the parts budget i.e. The springs/dampers they have may be 90% perfect for them and they'd like the other 10% but the budget says no, sorry another £50 per car can't be found.

I don't think anyone is doubting Lotus' ability, but to think they can't be improved on ignores so many things when you think about it in a logical fashion - such as the mentioned compromise settings, the factory defaults have to suit all markets/road conditions/surfaces (unless Lotus tweak export models, but I'm not aware they do).

[RobM77]

LivinLaVidaLotus said:

I'm with Scuffers here, I can see what you're saying Rob, but if you think about it logically then I'm sure you'll see what Scuffers is getting at.

Lotus are building a car to a budget - yes they have fantastic ride and handling development, but they are working with a limited set of "tools" constrained by the parts budget i.e. The springs/dampers they have may be 90% perfect for them and they'd like the other 10% but the budget says no, sorry another £50 per car can't be found.

I don't think anyone is doubting Lotus' ability, but to think they can't be improved on ignores so many things when you think about it in a logical fashion - such as the mentioned compromise settings, the factory defaults have to suit all markets/road conditions/surfaces (unless Lotus tweak export models, but I'm not aware they do).

That is true, but two things remain:

a) I'm happy with my car's setup for road use (how an earth can anyone argue against that?)

b) The chances of an aftermarket company improving on Lotus' own efforts are very slim, even given the highest quality springs dampers. Yes, they could do it for a smooth race track, but I'd be very doubtful if they can improve on what Lotus have done for a variety of roads and weather conditions. If you follow that dodgy logic through to its ultimate conclusion, then a bloke in a shed could build an entire car to better the Elise. Plenty of people have tried - in fact plenty of full blown car companies with million pound budgets have tried! Yes, it's a matter of money and Lotus are working to tight deadlines, but bear in mind the countless £100k+ supercars that can't out perform an Elise's grip and composure down a bumpy road.

[bogie]

as with any product sold on the open market - its been built compromised

uncompromised money no object and you end up with a Zonda - R

pay Lotus more money and you get a £60K Exige

pay them even more money and you get a £120K one off GT3 Exige

pay them even more money and you get an F1 car

Im not an expert, but I got fed up of my standard S2 setup within 6 months and modded the crap out of it to suit me better, rather than a compromised mass market solution ......I liked it even more then

[Scuffers]

LivinLaVidaLotus said:

I don't think anyone is doubting Lotus' ability, but to think they can't be improved on ignores so many things when you think about it in a logical fashion - such as the mentioned compromise settings, the factory defaults have to suit all markets/road conditions/surfaces (unless Lotus tweak export models, but I'm not aware they do).

exactly....

I am not saying they can't do better, just that in the constraints of what they are working towards, there are obvious limits.

Oh, and Rob, you may have missed that I have been racing an Elise since 1998, somewhat longer than most...

oh and PS. I don't sell dampers or the like (or get paid by people that do), I just work with manufacturers of them to improve them in this application, mainly so I can have better dampers on my own cars, same goes for most of the stuff I do.

Edited by Scuffers on Sunday 18th October 20:27

[RobM77]

Scuffers said:

Oh, and Rob, you may have missed that I have been racing an Elise since 1998, somewhat longer than most...

Nope, haven't missed that at all, I'm well aware of it. It doesn't change how aggressive and well, just wrong your comments are! This was a perfectly civilised thread until you turned up.

[RobM77]

LivinLaVidaLotus said:

such as the mentioned compromise settings, the factory defaults have to suit all markets/road conditions/surfaces.

Maybe I've been mis-understood here, but that is precisely what I'm saying - the Lotus settings are a fantastic compromise for all environments. I don't doubt that Scuffers' race car handles like an absolute dream on a track, or that there's someone somewhere who's tweaked his Lotus to deal with horrifically bumpy roads with great success. However, what makes the factory settings so good is that they cope with everything - I use my car everyday in pouring wind and rain in completely safety and satsifaction and then I can take it on a track day in the middle of summer and still find it good. That's really hard to do!

[Scuffers]

RobM77 said:

Scuffers said:

Oh, and Rob, you may have missed that I have been racing an Elise since 1998, somewhat longer than most...

Nope, haven't missed that at all, I'm well aware of it. It doesn't change how aggressive and well, just wrong your comments are! This was a perfectly civilised thread until you turned up.

Oh FFS.

tell me, where have I been so wrong in this thread?

I am only wrong in your somewhat blinkered view of the subject.

Oh, and you analogy that some guy in a shed can't possibly do better is a little hollow when you consider what quite a few guys in sheds have achived with the Elise platform working from 'sheds' as you put it.

for example:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=55637069...

[dom180]

Scuffers said:

RobM77 said:

Scuffers said:

Oh, and Rob, you may have missed that I have been racing an Elise since 1998, somewhat longer than most...

Nope, haven't missed that at all, I'm well aware of it. It doesn't change how aggressive and well, just wrong your comments are! This was a perfectly civilised thread until you turned up.

Oh FFS.

tell me, where have I been so wrong in this thread?

I am only wrong in your somewhat blinkered view of the subject.

Oh, and you analogy that some guy in a shed can't possibly do better is a little hollow when you consider what quite a few guys in sheds have achived with the Elise platform working from 'sheds' as you put it.

for example:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=55637069...

I think Rob makes a valid point on the S2's setup as a road car - he wasn't talking about its track setup. Sure you can improve the S2 for track use (big surprise that - it's a road car after all) and add more expensive dampers (I prefer Karting to trackdays myself, much more fun) but it still doesn't improve the car on the road - every modded Elise I've driven thus far hasn't felt as nice on b-roads as the standard setup.

Ohlins are a great track damper - they improve massivley on Lotus' sport dampers for the road (but that's another story) but not on the standard Bilsteins imho.

Edit: great video btw.

For a few track days a year and road use, I think Lotus did a great job - the Evora improves on the Elise in many ways (ride is astonishingly good imho) - be interesting to see how that translates into the Elise S3.

Edited by dom180 on Sunday 18th October 21:02

[RobM77]

Scuffers said:

RobM77 said:

Scuffers said:

Oh, and Rob, you may have missed that I have been racing an Elise since 1998, somewhat longer than most...

Nope, haven't missed that at all, I'm well aware of it. It doesn't change how aggressive and well, just wrong your comments are! This was a perfectly civilised thread until you turned up.

Oh FFS.

tell me, where have I been so wrong in this thread?

I am only wrong in your somewhat blinkered view of the subject.

Oh, and you analogy that some guy in a shed can't possibly do better is a little hollow when you consider what quite a few guys in sheds have achived with the Elise platform working from 'sheds' as you put it.

for example:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=55637069...

That's a race on a race track. I'm talking about improving on a setup designed to cope in all environments, especially the road ("90% road" as I said a while back). You know as well as I do that setting a car up for a smooth race track is a scientific exercise that most people can perform with a fair degree of success with enough testing and thought (I do it all the time, and I'm no genius!). Setting a car up for 90% road use is a whole different ball game. I wouldn't even attempt such a task. Vauxhall have paid Lotus large sums of money in the past to help set up their road cars. Do they pay men in sheds to do the same?!

[b14]

This has been an interesting read!

Rob, to an extent I agree with you - my Exige is on stock suspension and it feels great on the road. However, I have driven an S2 Elise with Hoffman's Nitrons on it and on the road it felt sooooo nice. When I've got a spare £1500 without a doubt a set are going on my Exige.

Bear in mind that aftermarket companies such as Nitron build dampers for all sorts of different cars, and have had much more development time on the Elise than Lotus got (i.e. before they had to launch the thing).

[dom180]

LivinLaVidaLotus said:

I'm with Scuffers here, I can see what you're saying Rob, but if you think about it logically then I'm sure you'll see what Scuffers is getting at.

Lotus are building a car to a budget - yes they have fantastic ride and handling development, but they are working with a limited set of "tools" constrained by the parts budget i.e. The springs/dampers they have may be 90% perfect for them and they'd like the other 10% but the budget says no, sorry another £50 per car can't be found.

I don't think anyone is doubting Lotus' ability, but to think they can't be improved on ignores so many things when you think about it in a logical fashion - such as the mentioned compromise settings, the factory defaults have to suit all markets/road conditions/surfaces (unless Lotus tweak export models, but I'm not aware they do).

Lotus do tweak models for different markets - the US spec Elise get a different AD07 compound.

[Mark B]

Shame, another great thread going down hill... Not sure what your beef is Rob, but you are not coming across at all well and extremely naive with respect to suspension design and development within a production car environment, Lotus or not. Sure, the Lotus Elise variants have great ride and handling, but there grip isn't 'that' high and the design would have had compromises from a cost perspective, every OEM does.

Asking an experienced individual to go search 'Google' is hardly a great argument.

[RobM77]

Mark B said:

Shame, another great thread going down hill... Not sure what your beef is Rob, but you are not coming across at all well and extremely naive with respect to suspension design and development within a production car environment, Lotus or not. Sure, the Lotus Elise variants have great ride and handling, but there grip isn't 'that' high and the design would have had compromises from a cost perspective, every OEM does. Asking an experienced individual to go search 'Google' is hardly a great argument.

I'd hate to be thought of as turning the thread downhill. I just made an innocent comment that I liked the standard setup and Scuffers started on me. He's the one who's sworn and thrown the insults etc. All I did was to say I liked the way my Elise handled.

I'm sorry, but surprised, that I'm not coming across well. I'm just telling it like it is. Any odd reactions to that is just Pistonheads I'm afraid.

[dom180]

Mark B said:

Shame, another great thread going down hill... Not sure what your beef is Rob, but you are not coming across at all well and extremely naive with respect to suspension design and development within a production car environment, Lotus or not. Sure, the Lotus Elise variants have great ride and handling, but there grip isn't 'that' high and the design would have had compromises from a cost perspective, every OEM does.

Asking an experienced individual to go search 'Google' is hardly a great argument.

I think Rob's coming accross fine on this thread - he's being perfectly reasonable and polite. (You know, I'm not entirely sure that you're coming accross all that well, straight in with a negative contribution like that/subtle little dig at Rob.)

In my view, the S2 Elise grips just fine in standard form for a road car (bearing in mind that the S2 design is 9 or 10 years old) compared, in my direct experience driving various Porsche's (Cayman (mk 1 and 2) and mk 2 Cayman S with PASM, and 997 mk2 Carerra S)and sundary other vehicles.

Short of bolting on a set of soft compound "not brilliant with standing water/rain" track tyres and dampers/springs that ruin the ride on a moderately bumpy road there's not much more you can do to improve things. Maybe a set of expensive dampers (9 years after launch) will improve things a bit but I have't found a set for road use that does yet to my satisfaction - it's easy to trade off ride and gain responce/grip but difficult to maintain ride and gain handling. (And with the right springs/dampers/tyres you could make a Metro outgrip a standard Elise quite easily - great on a track, less good on the B4368...)

I agree that the Elise is a massively compromised design - crap radiator/engine placement and various cheap /nasty components - nothing too compromised about the tyres/springs/dampers that Lotus used though unless you want to track it a lot and then you're compromising the road setup a fair bit in my view.

[TIPPER]

Going back to the OP's question: its worth remembering that on the assembly line each station gets 8 minutes to complete its task. In the case of setting the suspension geo (which will have a great impact on the handling of the car), thats two minutes per corner!
The S2 was set up to more readily understeer than the S1 when clumsily driven and to also resist snapping into oversteer when the clumsy driver then snaps the throttle shut. The S1 was set up with a purer balance but too many ended up going into hedges backwards as people didn't understand mid-engined cars.
As Rob would know, its easy enough to set up an S1 to be a terminal understeerer and the S2 to be snappy. Most people prefer something in-between.

Just to pick up on the OE vs bespoke suspension debate: I'm no engineer but I do know what the seat of my pants tells me and my S1 on Nitrons and 400/475 springs with a diy geo handles better on track now than it ever has and feels fantastic on the road without ever threathening to spit me into the undergrowth. The ride is different to OE but worse? Not really.