Discussion
Getting back to the start of the thread "I have just had my weekly newsletter from Whatcar magazine website. On it i read an interesting article about new European laws which may require all cars to have ABS in 2003 to help pedestrian safety.".
Please note "pedestrian safety".
Senario 1: Ace driver on the open road at speed, but being observant and considerate, screams up to a corner but the ABS cuts in early and slightly dissapoints him, boo, shame on you ABS you fun spoiling gadget.
Scenario 2: Ace Driver on city streets below the limit being observant and considerate but cretin child wheelieing his BMX along the path gets it wrong and flies in to the road in front of him. ABS cuts in and allows Ace Driver to brake hard and steer at the same time, cretin lives another day, no damage, no insurance paperwork.
How far up you own @r$e do you have to be to think that a 1:1000 slight dissapointment isn't worth a 1:1000000 chance of saving a child's life?
And another thing - the advantage of six pot calipers (or four pot - the Elise uses big clunky two pot AP jobs) is that you can use lighter discs because for a given pad area you need a narrower swept area, and your leverage is increased (assuming rotor OD stays the same) as the centre of the pad area is on a larger radius.
Rant over, sorry.
Please note "pedestrian safety".
Senario 1: Ace driver on the open road at speed, but being observant and considerate, screams up to a corner but the ABS cuts in early and slightly dissapoints him, boo, shame on you ABS you fun spoiling gadget.
Scenario 2: Ace Driver on city streets below the limit being observant and considerate but cretin child wheelieing his BMX along the path gets it wrong and flies in to the road in front of him. ABS cuts in and allows Ace Driver to brake hard and steer at the same time, cretin lives another day, no damage, no insurance paperwork.
How far up you own @r$e do you have to be to think that a 1:1000 slight dissapointment isn't worth a 1:1000000 chance of saving a child's life?
And another thing - the advantage of six pot calipers (or four pot - the Elise uses big clunky two pot AP jobs) is that you can use lighter discs because for a given pad area you need a narrower swept area, and your leverage is increased (assuming rotor OD stays the same) as the centre of the pad area is on a larger radius.
Rant over, sorry.
quote:
Agreed, although I'm not sure that's taking the original quote in context. The author was making a point about maximum applicable braking force against a claimed need to get bigger disks or 6 pot calipers. In that context he was correct - if you can lock the wheels you have enough braking available.
Thanks Bombjack. Your right, it was just purely a "knee-jerk" reaction to the comments made by Hungry Jim about the need for larger brakes on the Lotus Elise. Not sure where his problem is here?, perhaps it stems from the Early S1 Elise brake troubles?
However going back to my original comment - "If you can lock your wheels, your brakes are OK", this is still true, provided you have good progressive braking performance at all brake pedal pressure levels in between. ie:- from no pedal pressure right up to max. pedal pressure, with wheels locked (all four at the same time if possible).
Now, before someone passes comment, I am not saying that locking your wheels is what you should be doing in any situation, whether it be on the road or track.
I am just saying that the brakes must be good enough to lock all four (or three if your Delboy) the road wheels. (no ABS fitted obviously).
J
My point of better disks and calipers is that rather than having the wheels lock easily the bigger calipers would apply more even pressure across the disk.
By the time the pedal is fully pressed the wheels will have locked and the car will have slowed down more because the brakes will have stopped it quicker
Even though it dosent need it im trying to think of an option to ABS
If you thought of scenarios like the ones above all the time you would never drive.
You could get hit by a bus an hour from now while walking the dog.
Do you worry about that?
By the time the pedal is fully pressed the wheels will have locked and the car will have slowed down more because the brakes will have stopped it quicker
Even though it dosent need it im trying to think of an option to ABS
If you thought of scenarios like the ones above all the time you would never drive.
You could get hit by a bus an hour from now while walking the dog.
Do you worry about that?
quote:
By the time the pedal is fully pressed the wheels will have locked and the car will have slowed down more because the brakes will have stopped it quicker.
Sorry I haven't a clue what you are talking about. How you can think that locking you wheels can slow you down quicker is quite beyond me, have you even been in a fast car?
quote:
You could get hit by a bus an hour from now while walking the dog.
Do you worry about that?
Only if I walked the dog down the middle of the road... do you?
quote:
If you thought of scenarios like the ones above all the time you would never drive.
I do think of scenarios like that all the time, ever since I was hit head on by a german driving on the wrong side of the road because he forgot what side we use in the UK. The unexpected happens all the time, you just have to try to adapt to other peoples stupidity. This is why I go slow near hazards, if you're careful enough you can only kill someone who's really trying to get hit [think of it as evolution in action].
quote:
You still havent grasped it - by the time you got to locking the wheels the car would have stopped
Ehhh? no you've lost me there, do you mean you slowly press the brake then as the car slows down it will eventually lock the brakes? Too powerful brakes are worse than weak brakes as they wil lock up wheels at the slightest touch. Which is why the recommneded way to upgrade brakes on the Elise is better pads and leave the disks. This increases braking performance without it going OTT, giving better feel and balance.
Yes that is almost what i meant but with more powerful brakes if you slowly pressed the pedal by the time the wheels would have locked the car would already have stopped.
Alot of you are forgetting the point of this topic
I was arguing against any brake upgrades but if the goverment wants cars to brake better there should be a legal distance that they must be able to stop in and whatever it was im sure the elise would pass but if it dident i would rather add better brakes than ABS
Alot of you are forgetting the point of this topic
I was arguing against any brake upgrades but if the goverment wants cars to brake better there should be a legal distance that they must be able to stop in and whatever it was im sure the elise would pass but if it dident i would rather add better brakes than ABS
quote:
Alot of you are forgetting the point of this topic
I was arguing against any brake upgrades but if the goverment wants cars to brake better there should be a legal distance that they must be able to stop in and whatever it was im sure the elise would pass but if it dident i would rather add better brakes than ABS
Yes, that is the longest sentance I have ever read and it hurt my eyes and brain. Please read other peoples replies because you are just writing utter rubbish.
quote:
Would ABS have helped with that German?
Yes - road was wet, we both locked up and he didn't cadence brake. His passenger had to have his spleen removed and I have to use a comedy track ball instead of a mouse because my broken hand didn't mend right.
Most drivers are not skilled and not paying attention, having readies to buy an Elise does not make you a good driver - adding ABS helps everyone at the penalty of 5kg additional weight and losing a bit of feel (maybe). Do you complain about the weight of your stereo? Do you buy you shoes based on how they affect brake feel?
If you are using the Elise as a long distance everyday car then ok
I would be happy to accept 5-6 kg of weight
But there would have to be a button inside the car which would allow it to turned off and on with ease at any time.
If it is a nice day ,dry road or on the track or a clear open bit of road in the country of town then you could turn it off any other time you could Turn it on Ie. long distance motorways residential Areas and Near Schools.
Probably wouldent hamper 0-60 times anyway.
>> Edited by hungryjim on Thursday 8th August 14:42
I would be happy to accept 5-6 kg of weight
But there would have to be a button inside the car which would allow it to turned off and on with ease at any time.
If it is a nice day ,dry road or on the track or a clear open bit of road in the country of town then you could turn it off any other time you could Turn it on Ie. long distance motorways residential Areas and Near Schools.
Probably wouldent hamper 0-60 times anyway.
>> Edited by hungryjim on Thursday 8th August 14:42
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