Have you ever heard about modifying data stored in a BMW key

[Jon_Targaryen]

Hello everybody,

I know it sounds a bit strange, but I am a forensic researcher and one of my customers is in trouble, because he is being accused of thiefing his own car. The data stored in the key (BMW) doesn't match with the story he told the police, he told them his car was stolen between X hour and Y hour. The data stored in the key says the car was used between these hours, and although my customer denies it, the insurance company has denounced him.

My theory is that thieves changed the data when they stole the car by using some kind of advanced instrument (I can say the key was inside the house, over the furniture, and the car was outside, so it was very close, perhaps 10 meters in line).

Any ideas?

Thanks.

[Jon_Targaryen]

AW10 said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcwebertobias/2015/...

Hello,

Thanks but I already knew this article. In it, it is not exactly said that the key can be modified by the thieves by using radio frequency.

[Jon_Targaryen]

The Spruce goose said:

surely if the customers keys are saying it was driven then the thieves would have to modify the key data which would be pointless. i presume the car was stolen without keys?

Yes, the car was stolen without the keys.

Any ideas?

[Jon_Targaryen]

The Spruce goose said:

From what I know to modify the keys they would need the keys. If it was stolen I guess if the keys were near the car they might update but I guess this didn't happen. I would say he is lying.

That's the point I would like to clarify. Is it tecnically possible? The keys were so near inside the house and the car was outside.

[Jon_Targaryen]

Glasgowrob said:

what if the thieves used a transmitter and spoofed the car/key into thinking they were nearby and hence working normally.

would explain why the key says it was used and explain how the car was stolen.

What do you mean? I don't understand your point of view. How could the key be spoofed if it was 10 meters away? That is the point what I would like to clarify and I would appreciate if anybody links some technical article in order to show it to the Courts.

Thanks.

[Jon_Targaryen]

daemon said:

Out of curiosity, what motive would a thief have for remotely programming your clients key to imply he'd been driving it during the timeframe they had actually stolen it?

Seems very odd, surely?

It seems very odd, I assume it, but I have to believe my client, he has money and doesn't need to do it.

Maybe they changed the data accidentally while they were thiefing the car?

If I am right, to steal a car you need first a kind of transponder to sniff the data and then you have to try different keys, so maybe by doing it they changed the data. Or even they didn't want to be prosecuted so they changed the data because they knew the insurance company would read the key...

[Jon_Targaryen]

The Spruce goose said:

the key can be spoofed but that is not the point though is it. the key that the owner has, has the information about it being driven which from my knowledge would mean the car would be transmitting to the key which is impossible if it is driven away. If the keys had been taken and near the car after being stolen then i would say the data could have been transmitted from car to keys.

How could I prove this is possible? I mean, I need to prove the car can send information to the key although the key is not inside the car.

[Jon_Targaryen]

daemon said:

Any scope for it being a family member involved?

I remember a friend of mine who worked for an Alfa dealership having to deal with the service department being accused of stealing a customers car from their house by creating a new key. The car subsequently turned up and the key logging showed no new keys were used. Finally a relative (son, from memory) admitted they'd taken the car.

No way for a family member to be involved. The main question here is:

Can a BMW key which is outside the car, but very close to it, be updated by the car?

Thanks.

[Jon_Targaryen]

daemon said:

If theres "evidence" that the car was used during a particular period, surely that implies more than one contact of the car and key OR for all the contact / updating to happen at the end of the period?

I could "get" if there was a start logged using the key, then nothing else using some sort of duplication technique and then they drove off, but more than one touchpoint surely assumes the key made contact with the car OR the thieves came back, to presumably force the key to update for some reason?

But, would it be possible to change/update the data inside the key wirhout having the key (I mean, with the key inside the house)?

[Jon_Targaryen]

Fore Left said:

I know fk all about this sort of thing but logic suggests that, given the key stores data such as time, mileage and mpg, it is only updated when it is (about to be?) removed from the ignition. Your customer's key would therefore need to have been present at the end of the journey.

Unless he has a time machine.

Have you asked BMW?

We have asked but only read the key, nothing else.

[Jon_Targaryen]

Yipper said:

* Scenario 1 = Car moved without key (time X)... went out of range of key... driven / transported back within range of key (for whatever reason) (time Y)...

• Scenario 2 = Key was reprogrammed over-the-air (OTA) remotely, by laptop or similar device, from a few metres away by somebody outside the property...

Both seem not impossible, but somewhat unlikely.

But is the second scenario possible? Which klind of instrumental is needed?

Thanks.

[Jon_Targaryen]

Fore Left said:

That makes some sense if the car was recovered. The fact the insurance company have "denounced" the customer suggests it wasn't.

The car has not been recovered.

[Jon_Targaryen]

The Spruce goose said:

i can't see how it would easiest way is check it the key communicates via gprs. You can get testers.

Which testers?

[Jon_Targaryen]

TooMany2cvs said:

In a key they didn't have?

Occam's razor says he got pissed, crashed it, and cooked the "nicked" story to cover his arse. Not the first time, won't be the last. And you can bet that if plod or the insurance investigators get a chance, they'll be looking through CCTV.

There is no CCTV around.

[Jon_Targaryen]

The Spruce goose said:

A spectrum analyzer.

But it is written in any technical article it is possible to modify the key OTA?

[Jon_Targaryen]

OldGermanHeaps said:

Aren't forensic researchers supposed to have at least some knowledge about the subject being researched? Any idiot can post a poorly phrased question on a forum, particularly a non marque specific forum that has probably 2/3 of users who don't know much about how cars actually work beneath the surface other than the ins and outs of leasing or pcp and having a garage do anything dirtier than topping up the screenwash?

I think insulting is not neccessary, don't you think so?

[Jon_Targaryen]

Glasgowrob said:

Not quite sure what your looking for OP but there are a number of devices available that bridge the key to car connection over any distance.

I'll assume a few things

Car has keyless start/entry
Owner says keys never left their possession
Insurance have done a data dump which shows data logging a drive which doesn't tally with the owners version of events


2 possibilities

1 the owners in on it

2 the thiefs bridges the key to car for the duration of the journey logged which is strange but not outwity the realms of possibility.

Any more info ie how long was the last journey logged or any other relevant info you care to share.

Thanks! I'm interested in the second one. How could it be possible? Instrumental needed? Process?

Thanks and regards.

[Jon_Targaryen]

TooMany2cvs said:

I think there's one assumption being made which is not altogether warranted by the OP's actual posts.

I doubt this even took place in the UK - I suspect Jon's native language is not English, and the UK justice system is irrelevant. The thread is about the technicalities of whether it's possible, and speculation about testimony credibility is not really relevant.

That's it. Yes, I'm not from the UK, I just want to know if this action can be done.