4 wheel drive & the real world
Discussion
The whole attitude to 4wd road cars seems to be directly related to the drivers age. I was brought up on Capris and Escorts so RWD is where I feel most comfortable with the most natural type of drive. FWD I loathed as it took over the mainstream and I never really liked the whole hot hatch ethos. 4wd I've experienced in various Audis over the years but some recent trips in my friend's A8 prove just how quick and tractable it is on the badly surfaced / soaked / muddy back roads in Devon. It can put it's power down and jump into small gaps in traffic on wet roads with more confidence than just about anything I've experienced before, the grip is abundant and the brakes are superb - Can't really see any advantage on a good dry road though and it's a shame the ride's so dreadful !
On a personal note I have a 4wd Ford Ranger that copes in 2wd 95% of the time with no real issues. The 4wd is excellent on steep, loose surfaces, snow or mud though hopeless on A/T tyres in very boggy conditions.
On a personal note I have a 4wd Ford Ranger that copes in 2wd 95% of the time with no real issues. The 4wd is excellent on steep, loose surfaces, snow or mud though hopeless on A/T tyres in very boggy conditions.
doogz said:
bennyboysvuk said:
RWD allows easy access to many roundabout exit drifts or the kind of exit of a roundabout where the steering points straight ahead and you finish the corner with the rear wheels. I've not had the opportunity to try power-sliding a powerful 4WD off a roundabout so don't know how it feels. Can anyone with an Audi RS model, GTR or FQ360 comment?
A small (or big) power-slide off a roundabout is great fun, but I would expect it to be nigh on impossible in a 4WD unless you gave it a serious scandinavian flick to get it going.
Not really. Well, depends how much power is available.A small (or big) power-slide off a roundabout is great fun, but I would expect it to be nigh on impossible in a 4WD unless you gave it a serious scandinavian flick to get it going.
When I first got my Impreza I wondered how it'd handle on the limit, as TG and the mass media will tell you they understeer massively.
Well I was shocked at how sideways it goes. The tail comes out very easily and the 4wd just allows you to control it more easily. But were the 4wd makes a difference is when you plan it. My Camaro will wheel spin at 50mph in the wet and my TR7 V8 will light the tyres in 3rd if it's damp out. So you simply can't deploy the power when it's overly slippery out. The Impreza, no problem, just go to WOT. The fronts might scrabble a bit, but it just hooks up and goes.
On bumpy puddle strewn country roads the 4wd system also pays huge dividends in allowing you to put the power down and prevent wheel spin.
poing said:
Pixelpeep said:
Now - what's the catch with this?! > http://www.gateway2lease.com/bmw_m135i_leasing.php...
£287 a month Inc vat with £2k down?!
Didn't look at the link but doubt there is a catch, BMW are virtually giving these away at the moment. You'd be mad not to take the lease deal right now, make the most of it like many here already have.£287 a month Inc vat with £2k down?!
Probably cancelled by someone who ordered last November and found the car won't be delivered until April.
(And may go up in price as the offer was for cars registered by the end of March)
Doubt you'll get that deal on anything other than a cancelled order now, so spec will be limited.
No doubt someone will prove me wrong though.
Podie said:
harryowl said:
What about Option E - RWD and the realisation that an accelerator pedal isn't an on/off switch!
doogz said:
Scuffers said:
Only because of regulation - it was deemed an unfair advantage out of slow corners.
Yeah, I know. Just thought it was interesting and relevant. What do you think made the bigger difference at LeMan last year though, the Audi having 4WD, or the Audi having a 3.7 turbo diesel engine, when petrol engines are limited to 3.4 NA or 2.0 FI?
Diesels have a massive advantage before you consider 4wd.
You can only really compare between the dismals.
TREMAiNE said:
At the end of the day, if 4WD was so essential, we'd see BMW and Mercedes implement it in their saloons over here in the UK - but because of the lack of snow we get they don't bother and keep the 4WD cars for Europe.
Not really. Lets face it, a big part of BMW marketing in the UK is the fact the cars are RWD. An AWD variant of the same car will use more fuel, perform worse on the NEDC test and produce more Co2. So as a fleet or company car driver they will be less desirable.All up this makes the AWD variants a small niche in the UK market, which itself is a niche in Europe/N America as we are RHD.
BMW probably don't see the profit vs the effort of bringing these cars to the UK. Rather than the anything to do with the weather or AWD ability.
Have owned three very different 4WD cars in succession:
Audi S3 - Haldex 4WD, mk1 with 260hp - predictable once you appreciate it will understeer like your average FWD before tightening its line
Audi RS4 (B5) - Torsen 4WD, 470+ bhp - predictable permanent 4WD, epic grip.
911 Turbo - big lump slung behind back wheels, biased to RWD - amazing grip but still needs respect in the wet, and Option D mentioned above may still have you sideways with binary throttle control.
All very different in the way they behave..only really needed the 4WD aspect on a few occasions, but don't see myself going back to a 2WD car anytime soon.
Audi S3 - Haldex 4WD, mk1 with 260hp - predictable once you appreciate it will understeer like your average FWD before tightening its line
Audi RS4 (B5) - Torsen 4WD, 470+ bhp - predictable permanent 4WD, epic grip.
911 Turbo - big lump slung behind back wheels, biased to RWD - amazing grip but still needs respect in the wet, and Option D mentioned above may still have you sideways with binary throttle control.
All very different in the way they behave..only really needed the 4WD aspect on a few occasions, but don't see myself going back to a 2WD car anytime soon.
Edited by hoegaardenruls on Tuesday 28th January 11:23
cologne2792 said:
On a personal note I have a 4wd Ford Ranger that copes in 2wd 95% of the time with no real issues. The 4wd is excellent on steep, loose surfaces, snow or mud though hopeless on A/T tyres in very boggy conditions.
Maybe power plays a part in it too. My 4.0 litre Cherokee could be rwd (open diff) or AWD with an open centre diff.On the road it drove a lot better in AWD and would just wheelspin far too easy in RWD and make it unruly on tight turns. In the dry 2wd was fine, or if you drove more gentle. But in AWD mode you really could abuse it and hussle it along at a fair old rate.
TREMAiNE said:
At the end of the day, if 4WD was so essential, we'd see BMW and Mercedes implement it in their saloons over here in the UK - but because of the lack of snow we get they don't bother and keep the 4WD cars for Europe.
4WD is not essential. You'll find most of the people driving the various and abundant supply of ever increasing SUV's are doing so out of fashion choice. If fashion swayed towards different type of car FWD or whatever they would go with this.So, I agree. AWD is not essential in this country and yes, to promote and import AWD saloon's into the UK is a gamble and probably won't make them much money.
Rally reps are different breed though. But people generally don't buy a japanese/Italian whatever AWD thirsty turbo rally rep because it may snow.
The people who really need AWD in this country won't buy an X-drive 5 series, they'll buy a RWD 5 series and something a bit more useful as a work horse for when they really need it.
300bhp/ton said:
Also depends how the car is setup, oversteer and power oversteer aren't quite the same thing.
When I first got my Impreza I wondered how it'd handle on the limit, as TG and the mass media will tell you they understeer massively.
Which is precisely the problem with certain ego-driven reviews. And a lot of modern mags suffer from it. Understeer isn't in and of itself inherently any "worse" than oversteer. So long as the car allows the driver to keep things neutral on limit and get the rear rotating enough to follow the front end, all is well. Mild understeer is almost always preferrable to a car that is prone to persistent oversteer -- which is fatigue inducing to drive at the limit over time. When I first got my Impreza I wondered how it'd handle on the limit, as TG and the mass media will tell you they understeer massively.
hoegaardenruls said:
Have owned three very different 4WD cars in succession:
Audi S3 - Haldex 4WD, mk1 with 260hp - predictable once you appreciate it will understeer like your average FWD before tightening its line
the S3 like many 4wd cars benefits from slow in fast out approach, and driven on a trailing throttle it will go sideways everywhere, i do not particularly like the S3 but the easy they go sideways is nice imo Audi S3 - Haldex 4WD, mk1 with 260hp - predictable once you appreciate it will understeer like your average FWD before tightening its line
doogz said:
WRC?
You can enter a 2WD car if you like, there's no penalty for having 4WD.
You can enter a 2WD car if you like, there's no penalty for having 4WD.
Fair point, I guess you could still enter a 2wd if you didn't mind being slower than everyone else. Some of the slower classes do exlude 4wd though.
Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 28th January 11:47
300bhp/ton said:
Maybe power plays a part in it too. My 4.0 litre Cherokee could be rwd (open diff) or AWD with an open centre diff.
On the road it drove a lot better in AWD and would just wheelspin far too easy in RWD and make it unruly on tight turns. In the dry 2wd was fine, or if you drove more gentle. But in AWD mode you really could abuse it and hussle it along at a fair old rate.
Unfortunately Ranger drivers don't have that option. No centre diff means rear wheel drive + lsd or 4wd on loose or slippy surfaces only - when we did have some snow last year then in rwd it was going nowhere but once in 4wd it was quite brilliant and felt like normal tarmac.On the road it drove a lot better in AWD and would just wheelspin far too easy in RWD and make it unruly on tight turns. In the dry 2wd was fine, or if you drove more gentle. But in AWD mode you really could abuse it and hussle it along at a fair old rate.
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