A question of good progress

[Big Fat F'er]

Fat Audi 80 said:

How the hell can you judge how good a driver I am from your armchair .

I haven't judged you as a driver. What I have said is that 15 years doesn't make you good. By the way (I'll spell it out for you slowly) it doesn't make you bad either. i thought you had grasped that. What I am saying is that 15 years experience is neither long, not indicative of any specific skill level.

Fat Audi 80 said:

You, don't know me, so don't try and judge me either.

I aren't judging you. I'm sure you are a lovely person. A very very nice man. However, despite your loveliness I don't agree with what you have written, so I have responded to some of your comments. Surely thats fine. Or are you so used to your pals in the playground standing around looking up to you that you don't like it if anyone disagrees with you. Grow up. If you believe in your position, and I assume you do, then stand up and be prepared to be commented on.

Fat Audi 80 said:

You are possibly one of the most arrogant trolls we have seen for a while on here.

You need to get out more.

Fat Audi 80 said:

I understand you like a good debate (read argument) but your style does you no favours. You obviously didn't come on here to win friends and influence people, congratulations, you have succeded.

Yes, I like a good debate. No, I didn't come on here to win friends.

Fat Audi 80 said:

I will give you a wide berth from now on:

Leave my girth out of this.

Fat Audi 80 said:

P.S. If you are the fountain of all that is great about driving perhaps you could explain your qualifications and experience that make you so well positioned in your ivory tower?

A bit difficult this, based on what we've already said about experience. I know that whatever I've done, there are many who have done much more than I have (see, I realise that even if you don't - ho ho ho!). We will get into the "my experience is better than yours" rubbish. Suffice it to say I am qualified and experienced to comment on what I comment on. Also, I haven't claimed to be all that is great about driving. I've pointed out that an Advanced Civilian Driver doesn't speed. Not because it is 'dangerous' but because he/she should respect the roles, rules and responsibilities.

What it comes down to is that you are on a site that where some members openly advocate breaking the limit. You seem to think that you can do something just because it is safe. You don't like it when someone criticises you. Well tough. Like we've always said, if you want to speed, then go ahead and do it. But stop asking for approval from your peers, stop whingeing when someone strongly disagrees with you, and stop acting like a little girl.

I stand up for what I beleive in, so should you. I happen to think you are totally wrong. Why does that upset you so much?

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Thursday 15th June 12:29

[Big Fat F'er]

TripleS said:

Big Fat F'er said:

Fat Audi 80 said:

I am not saying I am the greatest driver that ever lived....

Obviously you're not. Thats TripleS!

Oh really BFF you are seriously adrift there. I have made no such claims or ever sought to give that impression. I simply do not think in those terms. The whole idea is ridiculous. You have sufficient good grounds on which to criticise me, but please do not represent me.

Best wishes all,
Dave - at best a mediocre driver.

Dave - you've always come across as having a sense of humour. Don't try and play outraged now. It was a joke. You know it.

Try having a laugh, it might help. You are taking things too seriously.

[Fat Audi 80]

Big Fat F'er said:

Fat Audi 80 said:

How the hell can you judge how good a driver I am from your armchair .

I haven't judged you as a driver. What I have said is that 15 years doesn't make you good. By the way (I'll spell it out for you slowly) it doesn't make you bad either. i thought you had grasped that. What I am saying is that 15 years experience is neither long, not indicative of any specific skill level.

Fat Audi 80 said:

You, don't know me, so don't try and judge me either.

I aren't judging you. I'm sure you are a lovely person. A very very nice man. However, despite your loveliness I don't agree with what you have written, so I have responded to some of your comments. Surely thats fine. Or are you so used to your pals in the playground standing around looking up to you that you don't like it if anyone disagrees with you. Grow up. If you believe in your position, and I assume you do, then stand up and be prepared to be commented on.

Fat Audi 80 said:

You are possibly one of the most arrogant trolls we have seen for a while on here.

You need to get out more.

Fat Audi 80 said:

I understand you like a good debate (read argument) but your style does you no favours. You obviously didn't come on here to win friends and influence people, congratulations, you have succeded.

Yes, I like a good debate. No, I didn't come on here to win friends.

Fat Audi 80 said:

I will give you a wide berth from now on:

Leave my girth out of this.

Fat Audi 80 said:

P.S. If you are the fountain of all that is great about driving perhaps you could explain your qualifications and experience that make you so well positioned in your ivory tower?

A bit difficult this, based on what we've already said about experience. I know that whatever I've done, there are many who have done much more than I have (see, I realise that even if you don't - ho ho ho!). We will get into the "my experience is better than yours" rubbish. Suffice it to say I am qualified and experienced to comment on what I comment on. Also, I haven't claimed to be all that is great about driving. I've pointed out that an Advanced Civilian Driver doesn't speed. Not because it is 'dangerous' but because he/she should respect the roles, rules and responsibilities.

What it comes down to is that you are on a site that where some members openly advocate breaking the limit. You seem to think that you can do something just because it is safe. You don't like it when someone criticises you. Well tough. Like we've always said, if you want to speed, then go ahead and do it. But stop asking for approval from your peers, stop whingeing when someone strongly disagrees with you, and stop acting like a little girl.

I stand up for what I beleive in, so should you. I happen to think you are totally wrong. Why does that upset you so much?

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Thursday 15th June 12:29

Thank you, at last a transparent post! It didn't take too long did it!

I am perfectly aware of my position in regard to speeding. I do, you don't. I don't need approval from my peers as such, I was just surprised that there was anyone who understood advanced driving and was still adamant that speeding is so bad.

Glad that you are happy to stick to your guns. So am I!

Glad we cleared that one up.

Cheers,

Steve

[Fat Audi 80]

Big Fat F'er said:

TripleS said:

Big Fat F'er said:

Fat Audi 80 said:

I am not saying I am the greatest driver that ever lived....

Obviously you're not. Thats TripleS!

Oh really BFF you are seriously adrift there. I have made no such claims or ever sought to give that impression. I simply do not think in those terms. The whole idea is ridiculous. You have sufficient good grounds on which to criticise me, but please do not represent me.

Best wishes all,
Dave - at best a mediocre driver.

Dave - you've always come across as having a sense of humour. Don't try and play outraged now. It was a joke. You know it.

Try having a laugh, it might help. You are taking things too seriously.

Try using some smilies, it helps you know!

3 years exp on internet

Cheers

Steve.

[Big Fat F'er]

TripleS said:

Big Fat F'er said:

Triple - Someone earlier claimed that no Advanced institution can be seen to condone breaking the limit. Well it is even clearer than that. They explicitly state that you shouldn't break the speed limits. If they just wanted to avoid condoning breaking the law, they would avoid mentioning it at all. Or perhaps they would imply it, without being too factual. But ALL of the Advanced groups, and also the Old Bill, state that you should not speed. You choose to ignore that, but it doesn't affect the rules. Your ignorance, deliberate or otherwise, of the Advanced code doesn't change that code.

That is why it is always a moral decision, based on your principles. Yes, it will sometimes be inconvenient for you to obey the law. But if you claim to be Advanced, don't speed, and don't try and argue that it is okay to do so. I agree with your earlier comment when you say you have never claimed to be Advanced. Okay then, thats fine, so this doesn't apply to you.

I can not recall whether it was earlier in this topic or in another topic on PH, but very recently there was some debate about the rights and wrongs of speeding. Well I see it like this:

Speeding is undeniably wrong in so far as it contravenes the law, but beyond that it is arguable, and in moral terms I do not regard it as wrong when I break that particular law.

The law is made by politicians for whom, as a group, I - and perhaps many of you - do not have a particularly high regard. In many cases these are people whose behavioural and moral standards are by no means superior to mine, and yours, and I therefore do not necessarily place a high value on some of the laws they create. Where I support their general objective - such as a decent level of road safety - I will try to behave in a manner that is compatible with that, but rigid compliance with speed limits is, for my purposes, not an important ingredient.

I have previously made various references to my attitude to other road users, namely that it is essentially one of goodwill, tolerance, accommodation, promoting harmony and co-operation, and being mindful of their interests, not just my own. That is how I prefer things to be, it is in no way a tiresome restriction.

You, on the other hand, recently announced quite clearly that you had no interest in the thoughts and (in effect) feelings of other road users. In my opinion that was not a good stance to take, and I'm not inclined to feel that my attitude and approach, and indeed moral stance is inferior to that.

That's about all I can say. This is perhaps an unusual way of looking at it, but there you go.

Oh, and you do not need to tell me to cool it etc.

Enjoy your driving, and take care,
Dave.

Good points, apart from the statement about my comment that I had no interest in the thoughts and feelings of other drivers.

You KNOW that it was a flippant comment in a previous thread. You KNOW that it was an attempt at humour.

You need to cool it.

[Big Fat F'er]

ipsg.glf said:

With all due respect BFF you sound like a typical IAM member. Are you?

I'm not typical in anything I do.

ipsg.glf said:

Droaning on and on about not exceeding the speed limit is exactly why the IAM is a total irrelevance to the vast majority of young drivers.

You advocate breaking the law. I advocate not breaking the law. Neither of us is droaning on and on. young drivers not agreeing with something doesn't make it wrong.

ipsg.glf said:

We need to get them onside and one of the best ways of trying to do this is, IMHO, to teach them the principle of being "able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear "rather than slavish adherance to a limit on a bit of tin.

We need to teach them both things (if they purport to be Advanced).

ipsg.glf said:

Let's not forget that IAM standard, in the scheme of things, is not a very high standard at all and just because people have passed the test does not mean they suddenly know everything there is to know about driving.

Correct. Who is claiming otherwise?

ipsg.glf said:

Remember that rules are for the observance of fools and the guidance of wise men. Which one are you?.

Like many of us, sometimes both.

[ipsg.glf]

7db said:

ipsg.glf said:

Remember that rules are for the observance of fools and the guidance of wise men. Which one are you?

Notice - as any sportsman will - the difference between Rules and Laws.

Not sure who this is directed at, nor what sentiment you are trying to portray.

[GreenV8S]

Big Fat F'er said:

Dave - you've always come across as having a sense of humour. Don't try and play outraged now. It was a joke. You know it.

Try having a laugh, it might help. You are taking things too seriously.

Now I don't know if this rudeness is also meant as a joke, or whether you really are that arrogant.

[ipsg.glf]

Big Fat F'er said:

ipsg.glf said:

With all due respect BFF you sound like a typical IAM member. Are you?

I'm not typical in anything I do.

ipsg.glf said:

Droaning on and on about not exceeding the speed limit is exactly why the IAM is a total irrelevance to the vast majority of young drivers.

You advocate breaking the law. I advocate not breaking the law. Neither of us is droaning on and on. young drivers not agreeing with something doesn't make it wrong.

ipsg.glf said:

We need to get them onside and one of the best ways of trying to do this is, IMHO, to teach them the principle of being "able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear "rather than slavish adherance to a limit on a bit of tin.

We need to teach them both things (if they purport to be Advanced).

ipsg.glf said:

Let's not forget that IAM standard, in the scheme of things, is not a very high standard at all and just because people have passed the test does not mean they suddenly know everything there is to know about driving.

Correct. Who is claiming otherwise?

ipsg.glf said:

Remember that rules are for the observance of fools and the guidance of wise men. Which one are you?.

Like many of us, sometimes both.

I fear you are too blinkered to understand the damage you are actually doing with your stance. Each to their own.

[Big Fat F'er]

GreenV8S said:

Big Fat F'er said:

Dave - you've always come across as having a sense of humour. Don't try and play outraged now. It was a joke. You know it.

Try having a laugh, it might help. You are taking things too seriously.

Now I don't know if this rudeness is also meant as a joke, or whether you really are that arrogant.

Come on, you're a big boy now, work it out for yourself (no need for smilies to help you I'm sure).

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Thursday 15th June 14:18

[Big Fat F'er]

ipsg.glf said:

Big Fat F'er said:

ipsg.glf said:

With all due respect BFF you sound like a typical IAM member. Are you?

I'm not typical in anything I do.

ipsg.glf said:

Droaning on and on about not exceeding the speed limit is exactly why the IAM is a total irrelevance to the vast majority of young drivers.

You advocate breaking the law. I advocate not breaking the law. Neither of us is droaning on and on. young drivers not agreeing with something doesn't make it wrong.

ipsg.glf said:

We need to get them onside and one of the best ways of trying to do this is, IMHO, to teach them the principle of being "able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear "rather than slavish adherance to a limit on a bit of tin.

We need to teach them both things (if they purport to be Advanced).

ipsg.glf said:

Let's not forget that IAM standard, in the scheme of things, is not a very high standard at all and just because people have passed the test does not mean they suddenly know everything there is to know about driving.

Correct. Who is claiming otherwise?

ipsg.glf said:

Remember that rules are for the observance of fools and the guidance of wise men. Which one are you?.

Like many of us, sometimes both.

I fear you are too blinkered to understand the damage you are actually doing with your stance. Each to their own.

Let's face it, despite various attempts to change you, I think it's fair to say you haven't changed your stance. Neither has Triple, or Green, etc. Thats why the debates go on. We all stick to what we believe in. I'm surprised you think that's blinkered.

You think it is okay to break the limit. I think Advanced Drivers shouldn't break the limit. That's not blinkered, that's difference of opinion. My stance is supported by the Advanced Organisations, the Old Bill, and various web sites. Yours isn't.

I wouldn't even mind if you had the bottle to admit that it is one of the rules and responsibilities, but you said that you are ignoring it to suit your own ends. It's your attempt to justify it by saying that the rules as written don't exist that baffle me.

[ipsg.glf]

Big Fat F'er said:

Let's face it, despite various attempts to change you, I think it's fair to say you haven't changed your stance. Neither has Triple, or Green, etc. Thats why the debates go on. We all stick to what we believe in. I'm surprised you think that's blinkered.

You think it is okay to break the limit. I think Advanced Drivers shouldn't break the limit. That's not blinkered, that's difference of opinion. My stance is supported by the Advanced Organisations, the Old Bill, and various web sites. Yours isn't.

I wouldn't even mind if you had the bottle to admit that it is one of the rules and responsibilities, but you said that you are ignoring it to suit your own ends. It's your attempt to justify it by saying that the rules as written don't exist that baffle me.

I'm only interested in outcomes. If you are the face of the IAM then god help us. In fact, you ARE the face of the IAM given that young people take one look at the IAM and then leg it.

You can harp on about adherance to speed limits as much as you like. You think people will take you seriously because you think that 30mph is OK but 31MPH is not. It is not about slavish adherance to the law. It is about improving road safety. Sometimes to make omelettes you have to break a few eggs.

[Big Fat F'er]

ipsg.glf said:

Big Fat F'er said:

Let's face it, despite various attempts to change you, I think it's fair to say you haven't changed your stance. Neither has Triple, or Green, etc. Thats why the debates go on. We all stick to what we believe in. I'm surprised you think that's blinkered.

You think it is okay to break the limit. I think Advanced Drivers shouldn't break the limit. That's not blinkered, that's difference of opinion. My stance is supported by the Advanced Organisations, the Old Bill, and various web sites. Yours isn't.

I wouldn't even mind if you had the bottle to admit that it is one of the rules and responsibilities, but you said that you are ignoring it to suit your own ends. It's your attempt to justify it by saying that the rules as written don't exist that baffle me.

I'm only interested in outcomes. If you are the face of the IAM then god help us. In fact, you ARE the face of the IAM given that young people take one look at the IAM and then leg it.

You can harp on about adherance to speed limits as much as you like. You think people will take you seriously because you think that 30mph is OK but 31MPH is not. It is not about slavish adherance to the law. It is about improving road safety. Sometimes to make omelettes you have to break a few eggs.

I am not the face of the IAM. I have never claimed to be. There are lots of reasons why young ones are not interested in the IAM (although actually it has many young members, just not enough). You should know that.

Apologies if my insistence that you should not break the law offends you so much. I would always expect advanced drivers to be that little bit different. A bit special. A cut above the rest. Not just in physical 'skill' levels, but in approach and responsibilities as well. Able to drive well within the law. Shame on you that you dont agree, and that you think it is such a terrible position to take.

Anyway, the main thing is you admit to your position, and I admit to mine. You think you should speed above the limit. I dont think you should.

Now go out for a drive, chill out, and realise there are more important things in life than our differences. I happen to think you are wrong, but it doesn't worry or upset me. You should try and be the same.

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Thursday 15th June 16:52

[Big fat F'er]

ipsg.plf - despite what you think, I always enjoy highlighting and discussing our differences.

However, I have just this minute discovered I am called out on a big un. So, I ain't ignoring ya, I just ain't here.

I will view your comments from a distance (obviously travelling there well within the applicable law).

BFF

[TripleS]

ipsg.glf said:

With all due respect BFF you sound like a typical IAM member. Are you?

Droaning on and on about not exceeding the speed limit is exactly why the IAM is a total irrelevance to the vast majority of young drivers.

We need to get them onside and one of the best ways of trying to do this is, IMHO, to teach them the principle of being "able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear "rather than slavish adherance to a limit on a bit of tin.

Let's not forget that IAM standard, in the scheme of things, is not a very high standard at all and just because people have passed the test does not mean they suddenly know everything there is to know about driving.

Remember that rules are for the observance of fools and the guidance of wise men. Which one are you?

Edited by ipsg.glf on Thursday 15th June 09:49

Good evening Mr glf I trust you're well.

You make one or two fair points there if I may say so.

I do feel that BFF's approach is not going to help get the youngsters on board, and that does need doing I think.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

PS. Cough, cough - video tapes? Perhaps sometime....?

[TripleS]

Big Fat F'er said:

TripleS said:

Big Fat F'er said:

Fat Audi 80 said:

I am not saying I am the greatest driver that ever lived....

Obviously you're not. Thats TripleS!

Oh really BFF you are seriously adrift there. I have made no such claims or ever sought to give that impression. I simply do not think in those terms. The whole idea is ridiculous. You have sufficient good grounds on which to criticise me, but please do not represent me.

Best wishes all,
Dave - at best a mediocre driver.

Dave - you've always come across as having a sense of humour. Don't try and play outraged now. It was a joke. You know it.

Try having a laugh, it might help. You are taking things too seriously.

Again, respectively:

Good, I hope so.
I'm not outraged.
OK.
No, that wasn't clear to me. It looked to me like sarcasm, which is not always humorous.
I do, and it often does.
Maybe, sometimes - but these matters do sometimes have their serious aspects.

BTW, I'm not keen on referring to you as BFF - will you provide us with a first name? I would have thought most of the anonimity enthusiasts could safely do that, which would be an improvement. I mean to say, even the far from docile lady from that foreign spot - Appletize or something - came clean and owned up to being called Vrenchen. She won't mind me mentioning that, she's a bit of a pal of mine you know.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

Big Fat F'er said:

TripleS said:

Big Fat F'er said:

Triple - Someone earlier claimed that no Advanced institution can be seen to condone breaking the limit. Well it is even clearer than that. They explicitly state that you shouldn't break the speed limits. If they just wanted to avoid condoning breaking the law, they would avoid mentioning it at all. Or perhaps they would imply it, without being too factual. But ALL of the Advanced groups, and also the Old Bill, state that you should not speed. You choose to ignore that, but it doesn't affect the rules. Your ignorance, deliberate or otherwise, of the Advanced code doesn't change that code.

That is why it is always a moral decision, based on your principles. Yes, it will sometimes be inconvenient for you to obey the law. But if you claim to be Advanced, don't speed, and don't try and argue that it is okay to do so. I agree with your earlier comment when you say you have never claimed to be Advanced. Okay then, thats fine, so this doesn't apply to you.

I can not recall whether it was earlier in this topic or in another topic on PH, but very recently there was some debate about the rights and wrongs of speeding. Well I see it like this:

Speeding is undeniably wrong in so far as it contravenes the law, but beyond that it is arguable, and in moral terms I do not regard it as wrong when I break that particular law.

The law is made by politicians for whom, as a group, I - and perhaps many of you - do not have a particularly high regard. In many cases these are people whose behavioural and moral standards are by no means superior to mine, and yours, and I therefore do not necessarily place a high value on some of the laws they create. Where I support their general objective - such as a decent level of road safety - I will try to behave in a manner that is compatible with that, but rigid compliance with speed limits is, for my purposes, not an important ingredient.

I have previously made various references to my attitude to other road users, namely that it is essentially one of goodwill, tolerance, accommodation, promoting harmony and co-operation, and being mindful of their interests, not just my own. That is how I prefer things to be, it is in no way a tiresome restriction.

You, on the other hand, recently announced quite clearly that you had no interest in the thoughts and (in effect) feelings of other road users. In my opinion that was not a good stance to take, and I'm not inclined to feel that my attitude and approach, and indeed moral stance is inferior to that.

That's about all I can say. This is perhaps an unusual way of looking at it, but there you go.

Oh, and you do not need to tell me to cool it etc.

Enjoy your driving, and take care,
Dave.

Good points, apart from the statement about my comment that I had no interest in the thoughts and feelings of other drivers.

You KNOW that it was a flippant comment in a previous thread. You KNOW that it was an attempt at humour.

You need to cool it.

Well your tone seldom sounds very light and humorous to me, but maybe I'm reading you wrongly. Very often it sounds as if you wish to feel expert and be doing all the telling, and winning the arguments etc., which doesn't go down too well with me. Anyhow no worry, you have your style and I have mine, and that's it.

Of the two of us I'm not sure it really is me that needs to cool it - but you have the last word by all means. Sorry folks but........

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

Big Fat F'er said:

Let's face it, despite various attempts to change you, I think it's fair to say you haven't changed your stance. Neither has TripleS, or Green, etc. Thats why the debates go on. We all stick to what we believe in. I'm surprised you think that's blinkered.

As a matter of fact I don't seek to change people - well certainly not directly by attempting to demolish their viewpoints. I'm quite happy to offer my viewpoint and I just hope it will remain on the table to be picked up by whoever sees any merit in it. If they then adjust their own attitude in their own good time as a result of that, and go on to benefit from it - well that splendid.

As I may have said before, I'm not a believer in sudden major alterations, revolutionary changes etc. IMHO minor adjustments made on a steady logical basis will suit most people best and yield good solid progress, and it should maintain a stable situation too - which is also important.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

Big Fat F'er said:

Now go out for a drive, chill out, and realise there are more important things in life than our differences.

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Thursday 15th June 16:52

There's another example of what I think is causing some of us (well certainly me) some difficulty with you here. You're in 'telling mode' again, and we're not going to be 'told' by you - or anybody else actually.

Most of us like to offer our opinions, suggestions and viewpoints, and we're very willing to listen to alternative views, but that's about it. We do not want opinions - which may have no greater validity than our own - thrust down our throats.

Now if you'll excuse me for a while, I'm going to have to go and cool it a little.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[GreenV8S]

Big Fat F'er said:

despite various attempts to change you, I think it's fair to say ...

Have you been attempting to change us? All I've heared is that I must obey the speed limit because the law says so, along with a metaphorical wagging finger.

I haven't seen any argument at all to pursuade me that there is any good reason to obey the speed limits other than the risk of penalties. That being the case I'll obey them only to the extent I feel is necessary to protect my license and my wallet. And I'll begrudge every bit of wasted attention that this compliance with the speed limits takes from me, and every minute wasted in the process.

Forcing drivers to drive slower than a safe appropriate speed for the circumstances under threat of penalties and fines is bad for road safety. I mentioned a few reasons why yesterday. Since nobody responded, I assume that everybody accepts those reasons.

The greater the gap between the safe appropriate speed and the speed limit, and the more strictly and rigorously the limit is enforced, the more harm this enforcement does. The gap is routinely significant, and the enforcement is harsh enough to be very important to drivers. It's a mistake in road safety terms, and IMO it's getting worse year by year as automated speed limit enforcement spreads.