Is overtaking a lost art?
Discussion
MC Bodge said:
Few people ever take their engines anywhere near max power/the red line.
I think that times have changed a fair bit from when I grew up with mostly small and gutless NA engines where you had to live at the redline to get them to shift. I've currently got a 3.0 6 cylinder twin turbo petrol and a 3.0 6 cylinder twin turbo diesel, and you don't need to go near the redline in those for them to get a shift on(the petrol is still fun at the redline though). I've also got a 3.7 V6 NA and you do need to live a lot nearer the redline in that, mainly because it weighs 1600kg. So you do need to flog that/live near the redline to get that to shift. If you floor that in a high gear you won't go anywhere fast. I've had a few turbo petrol/diesels try to hang me out to dry when I've gone for an overtake in it. I now make sure that the revs are really high if I'm planning to overtake to give me a much better chance of overtaking safely.
waremark said:
MC Bodge said:
Few people ever take their engines anywhere near max power/the red line.
Better to overtake near peak torque or peak power? Discuss. Few people would even know what that meant.
Many drivers appear to think that "revving" an engine is bad for it. They shift up very early and labour their engines, possibly further encouraged by those "eco" indications on dashboards.
Unless somebody does take their engine through its speed range at full throttle, they won't ever know how it performs and if/where the acceleration drops off.
Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 18th November 08:08
waremark said:
When I am looking for an overtake I plan the overtake whether or not I know the road, ready for any opportunity which may arise, for example closing up on the appoach to a right hand bend with a suitable gear engaged. I aim to be ready for the overtake anywhere there might be an opportunity. I would be wary of having a significant closing speed because I have to be ready for the target vehicle to come upon an obstruction and have to brake hard.
yes indeed. ...but if you know the road and KNOW there is an opportunity, you're not even a smidgen bit MORE ready than on any road you don't know...?RedAndy said:
waremark said:
When I am looking for an overtake I plan the overtake whether or not I know the road, ready for any opportunity which may arise, for example closing up on the appoach to a right hand bend with a suitable gear engaged. I aim to be ready for the overtake anywhere there might be an opportunity. I would be wary of having a significant closing speed because I have to be ready for the target vehicle to come upon an obstruction and have to brake hard.
yes indeed. ...but if you know the road and KNOW there is an opportunity, you're not even a smidgen bit MORE ready than on any road you don't know...?Much better to focus on using all the advanced driving tools at one’s disposal to deal with the road as it unfolds, including overtake opportunities.
Use of knowledge of the road ahead is to be discouraged. As John Lyon impressed on me many years ago… never drive based on what you know, drive only based on what you can see.
I often cringe when non-advanced drivers tell me that they always drive slower on a road they don’t know. When questioned, they say that if they don’t know the road it’s safer to drive slower than they would normally. When asked if they would then drive faster once they were familiar with the road in question they respond… “yes, of course I would”. When questioned as to why a slower speed was “safe” when they didn’t know the road but a faster speed is then OK when they get to know the road, the answer is inevitably… “because I know the road”. The explanation is usually accompanied with an explanation that as they now know how sharp the bends are they now know how fast they can go round them. Which is slightly disconcerting.
johnao said:
No, not if you are observing, anticipating and planning effectively. Knowledge that the layout of the unseen road ahead may facilitate an overtake is of no consequence and can be a distraction. When you arrive at the “known overtake opportunity” there may be an oncoming vehicle, pedestrians in the road, cyclists in front of the overtakee, the overtakee may increase speed, or there may be a parked vehicle which impedes a potential overtake, amongst a myriad of other possible reasons not to execute an overtake.
Much better to focus on using all the advanced driving tools at one’s disposal to deal with the road as it unfolds, including overtake opportunities.
Use of knowledge of the road ahead is to be discouraged. As John Lyon impressed on me many years ago… never drive based on what you know, drive only based on what you can see.
I often cringe when non-advanced drivers tell me that they always drive slower on a road they don’t know. When questioned, they say that if they don’t know the road it’s safer to drive slower than they would normally. When asked if they would then drive faster once they were familiar with the road in question they respond… “yes, of course I would”. When questioned as to why a slower speed was “safe” when they didn’t know the road but a faster speed is then OK when they get to know the road, the answer is inevitably… “because I know the road”. The explanation is usually accompanied with an explanation that as they now know how sharp the bends are they now know how fast they can go round them. Which is slightly disconcerting.
The 'I can go faster because I know the road' brigade are certainly somewhat alarming, But I think there can be a small advantage in knowing where possible overtaking opportunities might arise. I can think of a few locations where I will close up slightly and change down when following a slow moving vehicle into a bend because I know there is a possibility of an overtaking opportunity on the following well sighted straight. Or where I'll take an offside position knowing that this will give me a good view round the slight left bend coming up. In theory I suppose could do this even without knowing what's coming up just on the off chance, but this could seem aggressive if done too often without an ensuing overtake.Much better to focus on using all the advanced driving tools at one’s disposal to deal with the road as it unfolds, including overtake opportunities.
Use of knowledge of the road ahead is to be discouraged. As John Lyon impressed on me many years ago… never drive based on what you know, drive only based on what you can see.
I often cringe when non-advanced drivers tell me that they always drive slower on a road they don’t know. When questioned, they say that if they don’t know the road it’s safer to drive slower than they would normally. When asked if they would then drive faster once they were familiar with the road in question they respond… “yes, of course I would”. When questioned as to why a slower speed was “safe” when they didn’t know the road but a faster speed is then OK when they get to know the road, the answer is inevitably… “because I know the road”. The explanation is usually accompanied with an explanation that as they now know how sharp the bends are they now know how fast they can go round them. Which is slightly disconcerting.
MC Bodge said:
waremark said:
MC Bodge said:
Few people ever take their engines anywhere near max power/the red line.
Better to overtake near peak torque or peak power? Discuss. I want to start an overtake with enough 'engine revs headroom' to be able to complete the overtake without changing up.
With a turbo diesel, typically I overtake between 2k and 4k rpm.
With a turbo petrol, ditto between 3k and 5k - even though they rev much higher, there doesn't seem much benefit in faster acceleration.
I don't have a NA car now, but I can think of ones for which 4k to 6k is a good range. A Porsche GT3 may be spine tingling for the driver when taken to 9k, but it might give the overtakee rather a shock.
One of the most difficult cars I have driven for overtaking was a long ago personally imported Honda Civic Type R - it didn't go at all till you got to 6k, then from 6k to 8k it went like a scalded cat, so when looking for an overtake you needed to have 6k revs up, which wasn't very peaceful.
Pit Pony said:
Puzzles said:
People seems to get angry if someone overtakes on a single lane road.
Those passing places are usually too short I find. I digress. I learnt to overtake in a fiat 500 and then perfected it in a Citroen Ax 1.4D. It's all about the planning.
If I was still driving that today...the only thing that I'd overtake is a parked car I reckon! There is miles too much traffic volume now for me, so the Skoda wouldn't suit modern day traffic now imo.
waremark said:
One of the most difficult cars I have driven for overtaking was a long ago personally imported Honda Civic Type R - it didn't go at all till you got to 6k, then from 6k to 8k it went like a scalded cat, so when looking for an overtake you needed to have 6k revs up, which wasn't very peaceful.
I really disliked my E92 M3 for that as well. That also only came alive at 6k revs plus, and with it being a heavy car it needed a lot more guts lower down I thought. I wouldn't thank you for a NA Civic Type R either, although at least they are a fair bit lighter than the NA M3 though. I also remember the first time that I drove the NA E46 M3 as well, and that was a massive disappointment performance wise for me, because it was too heavy.
Hmm, if you don’t use the last couple of thousand revs in a Civic Type-R, you’ve basically got a 150bhp 1250kg hatch with a fairly flat 130lbft or so from 3000rpm. Which at the time would have made it a warm hatch. Not fast, but usable.
Of course you want all the available go, so you take 2nd gear for a 40mph overtake and risk clattering the limiter or shifting during the overtake. I preferred the gearing on the also high revving RX-8 I had after it, which would almost hit 70 in second before hitting the limiter.
Of course you want all the available go, so you take 2nd gear for a 40mph overtake and risk clattering the limiter or shifting during the overtake. I preferred the gearing on the also high revving RX-8 I had after it, which would almost hit 70 in second before hitting the limiter.
otolith said:
Hmm, if you don’t use the last couple of thousand revs in a Civic Type-R, you’ve basically got a 150bhp 1250kg hatch with a fairly flat 130lbft or so from 3000rpm. Which at the time would have made it a warm hatch. Not fast, but usable.
Of course you want all the available go, so you take 2nd gear for a 40mph overtake and risk clattering the limiter or shifting during the overtake. I preferred the gearing on the also high revving RX-8 I had after it, which would almost hit 70 in second before hitting the limiter.
I used to have to drop the M3 down into 2nd for overtakes like that too, but the problem with that was I'd hit the limiter almost straight away and then I'd have to grab 3rd quickly. 3rd was quite long legged in the M3 and at 8400rpm you were doing 110mph. Of course you want all the available go, so you take 2nd gear for a 40mph overtake and risk clattering the limiter or shifting during the overtake. I preferred the gearing on the also high revving RX-8 I had after it, which would almost hit 70 in second before hitting the limiter.
I just didn't really get on with the M3's characteristics for road use, but I'd imagine that it would be really good on a track or an autobahn though.
cerb4.5lee said:
I really disliked my E92 M3 for that as well. That also only came alive at 6k revs plus, and with it being a heavy car it needed a lot more guts lower down I thought. I wouldn't thank you for a NA Civic Type R either, although at least they are a fair bit lighter than the NA M3 though.
I also remember the first time that I drove the NA E46 M3 as well, and that was a massive disappointment performance wise for me, because it was too heavy.
Your standards are quite different from mine. I had an E46 M3, and although I liked many things about it I did feel the torque was lacking below 4k - so preparing for an overtake meant keeping the revs high. However, when I moved on to an E92 I found the engine fabulous - it still had the tremendous top end, but it now had what I considered to be usable torque low down. Incidentally, my E92 had a dual-clutch, and with a dual-clutch I would be happy not to change down until the start of an overtake.I also remember the first time that I drove the NA E46 M3 as well, and that was a massive disappointment performance wise for me, because it was too heavy.
The Civic Type R was a Japanese market saloon version which really didn't go below 6k, and which really did go above that.
waremark said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I really disliked my E92 M3 for that as well. That also only came alive at 6k revs plus, and with it being a heavy car it needed a lot more guts lower down I thought. I wouldn't thank you for a NA Civic Type R either, although at least they are a fair bit lighter than the NA M3 though.
I also remember the first time that I drove the NA E46 M3 as well, and that was a massive disappointment performance wise for me, because it was too heavy.
Your standards are quite different from mine. I had an E46 M3, and although I liked many things about it I did feel the torque was lacking below 4k - so preparing for an overtake meant keeping the revs high. However, when I moved on to an E92 I found the engine fabulous - it still had the tremendous top end, but it now had what I considered to be usable torque low down. Incidentally, my E92 had a dual-clutch, and with a dual-clutch I would be happy not to change down until the start of an overtake.I also remember the first time that I drove the NA E46 M3 as well, and that was a massive disappointment performance wise for me, because it was too heavy.
The Civic Type R was a Japanese market saloon version which really didn't go below 6k, and which really did go above that.
I do completely agree with you regarding the DCT though(funnily enough my BIL has had his E93 M3 DCT for 10 years now for example). The DCT does seem to make the best of the S65 V8 I reckon for definite(especially in comparison to the manual for me).
Even though I do go on like a broken record about high rev/low torque cars, they are awesome at 6k plus without question I think.
Not only is it a lost art, it seems to be regarded as wreckless by a lot of motorists nowadays.
Very strange as when I'm on my bike, its expected. People often move over to create more space (often too much showering you in s
t). In the car people seem very annoyed when I go past. I don't overtake when it's unsafe (although admittedly I have done in the past) and I always indicate first to let them know I'm going by but the amount of rear view mirror lighting I get is insane.
Overtaking cyclists seems to have got more unpopular since the new laws have been introduced. People are frightened to death of being on some lycramans go pro footage and prefer to just follow causing a huge tailback.
The other one is tractors. I find it amusing going past a line of 5-6 cars all sat behind a tractor on a clear road. I'll always overtake if there's a need to and it's safe. Not necessarily to drive fast but it's so much nicer having the road to yourself (for a few bends anyway!)
Very strange as when I'm on my bike, its expected. People often move over to create more space (often too much showering you in s
t). In the car people seem very annoyed when I go past. I don't overtake when it's unsafe (although admittedly I have done in the past) and I always indicate first to let them know I'm going by but the amount of rear view mirror lighting I get is insane. Overtaking cyclists seems to have got more unpopular since the new laws have been introduced. People are frightened to death of being on some lycramans go pro footage and prefer to just follow causing a huge tailback.
The other one is tractors. I find it amusing going past a line of 5-6 cars all sat behind a tractor on a clear road. I'll always overtake if there's a need to and it's safe. Not necessarily to drive fast but it's so much nicer having the road to yourself (for a few bends anyway!)
Just to show there is an exception to every rule -
I took the car out for a chance to stretch it's legs the other week and ended up on a well known excellent driving road in my part of the world.
It's twisty and narrow and if you are doing 60 you are doing well in most places (it is national speed limit).
Most average drivers are in the 40-45 mph zone (and no shame in doing so).
I came up behind three drivers while on the road (it is pretty quiet and it was a workday afternoon), all three of them saw me coming, slowed and indicated left to make it easier for me to pass.
My thanks to all of them.
I took the car out for a chance to stretch it's legs the other week and ended up on a well known excellent driving road in my part of the world.
It's twisty and narrow and if you are doing 60 you are doing well in most places (it is national speed limit).
Most average drivers are in the 40-45 mph zone (and no shame in doing so).
I came up behind three drivers while on the road (it is pretty quiet and it was a workday afternoon), all three of them saw me coming, slowed and indicated left to make it easier for me to pass.
My thanks to all of them.
Just to show there is an exception to every rule -
I took the car out for a chance to stretch it's legs the other week and ended up on a well known excellent driving road in my part of the world.
It's twisty and narrow and if you are doing 60 you are doing well in most places (it is national speed limit).
Most average drivers are in the 40-45 mph zone (and no shame in doing so).
I came up behind three drivers while on the road (it is pretty quiet and it was a workday afternoon), all three of them saw me coming, slowed and indicated left to make it easier for me to pass.
My thanks to all of them.
I took the car out for a chance to stretch it's legs the other week and ended up on a well known excellent driving road in my part of the world.
It's twisty and narrow and if you are doing 60 you are doing well in most places (it is national speed limit).
Most average drivers are in the 40-45 mph zone (and no shame in doing so).
I came up behind three drivers while on the road (it is pretty quiet and it was a workday afternoon), all three of them saw me coming, slowed and indicated left to make it easier for me to pass.
My thanks to all of them.
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