A1 HGV crash – What could have been done differently?
Discussion
Harpoon said:
Do you only queue on the inside lane of a motorway? Those four seconds aren't going to help if you have traffic left and right. Even if in the left lane, it also assumes there is still a hard shoulder (ie not all-lane running) for your escape. What about dual carriageways with no shoulder and relatively tight crash barriers?
Every situation you come across could be different, and you would try to formulate an escape plan based on the prevailing conditions and circumstances. The intention would be to avoid becoming involved in a situation like this one, but sometimes even the best laid plans might not be enough to prevent you being killed by a rogue HGV like in this situation.
Drumroll said:
All your posts on both treads have come across as "I am better than you" in your first post on the subject you put your views across and then add "awaits the inevitable knee-jerk flaming from the unthinking ones"(You disagree with me and you are stupid) which just emphasises your superior attitude.
Out of respect to those who lost their lives in this incident, I've been careful to keep my posts factual, objective & non-contentious. I've particularly tried to avoid giving the impression of being haughty or superior, and it's interesting that despite my efforts you have still interpreted my words in the way that you have. On the question of my footnote, please make sure to quote the full wording, so that it is not taken out of context. The "unthinking ones" referred to those playing the victim blaming card.
Surely no-one can argue with the principle of trying to leave some amount of space in front of you when slowing, and keeping an eye on the mirrors to make sure you're not going to get rear ended? If the worst happens you might at least have a full or partial escape route.
Nobody knows if this particular horrible incident could have been avoided, but it must be worth giving yourself a chance if you can.
Nobody knows if this particular horrible incident could have been avoided, but it must be worth giving yourself a chance if you can.
Mandat said:
Drumroll said:
All your posts on both treads have come across as "I am better than you" in your first post on the subject you put your views across and then add "awaits the inevitable knee-jerk flaming from the unthinking ones"(You disagree with me and you are stupid) which just emphasises your superior attitude.
Out of respect to those who lost their lives in this incident, I've been careful to keep my posts factual, objective & non-contentious. I've particularly tried to avoid giving the impression of being haughty or superior, and it's interesting that despite my efforts you have still interpreted my words in the way that you have. On the question of my footnote, please make sure to quote the full wording, so that it is not taken out of context. The "unthinking ones" referred to those playing the victim blaming card.
Glenn63 said:
What the OP says is good practice and I try the same myself even when I’m in a hgv and relatively safe from a rear impact. But in reality things happen so quickly, the traffic in front suddenly slows, your caught out a bit yourself, get on the brakes to a stop, then a second later, whack, your smeared across the tarmac by the hgv.
I largely do what OP says, within my own decided parameters. The traffic ahead does not ‘suddenly slow’, adequate forward observation should show the traffic bunching some distance ahead. Then, observe that the cars ahead are leaving adequate spacing between (if not, add the sum of their lack of gap to your forward gap). Rear observation should show an HGV bearing down on you, by the time he is close enough to cause concern, you will be able to see where he is looking. If he is looking away, then a horn blast should bring his attention to the situation. It’s about constant observation ALL AROUND, to ensure you have a safety bubble around you. Yeah, right, some will say, but your fate is to a very large extent in your own hands.Drumroll said:
If that's the case maybe start by looking at the title of this thread. To me, it implies they may have all survived if they did as I suggest. Where is that being respectful?
This is a discussion forum, and the point of my OP was to discuss & garner opinions about a specific aspect of this incident. I don't see what is controversial about the thread title, but I appreciate that different people see things differently.
My views & opinions are based on my own experiences, and my feeling is that some or all of the deaths could possibly have been avoided by using the techniques that have been described.
If nothing else, having a public discussion like this might help to prevent others becoming victims themselves in similar circumstances in the future.
As part of my initial comments on the other thread, I said that this incident should serve as a salutary lesson to all drivers, but I haven’t seen this being discussed yet or even mentioned in the media.
This is not arrogance or superiority on my part but merely a discussion on what we can all potentially learn from this incident.
In a modern passenger car, being hit by an HGV from behind at say 50mph is a survivable accident if you have somewhere to go, ie for your car to be pushed too without hitting anything in front. Leaving a sufficient gap, and even 1 sec of snapping on some steering and letting go of the brakes will see you punted, rather firmly, and probably with injury, onto the hard sholder/verge, ditch etc.
These is imo, a huge difference here between being almost certainly being killed by being sandwiched between impossible force and immovable object and simply being hit and pushed along, yes, it'll hurt, chances are you whiplash will be awful, but you have a good chance of survival.
I never stop directly behind another car (and certainly not an hgv) in a queue, i watch the vehicle behind, as it approaches (and yes, it's easy to tell if they are going to be able to stop or not from the point they start braking (or not....) and even converting a full on square hit into a glancing blow by being able to start to drive off the road and out of the way will save your life. Even better, if you see slow or stationary queue ahead, slow down sufficiently early to let the vehicle behind catch up and use them as a "blocker" for your vehicle, but always stop "tyres and tarmac" and preferably a bit more.
Sit in gear, handbrake on if the vehicle behind you is still moving, and if you really have too, drive gently in to the back of the car in front at an angle to avoid a square squeeze.
It'll probably never happen to you, but if it does, those minimal techniques will save your life. You can thank me afterwards.... ;-)
These is imo, a huge difference here between being almost certainly being killed by being sandwiched between impossible force and immovable object and simply being hit and pushed along, yes, it'll hurt, chances are you whiplash will be awful, but you have a good chance of survival.
I never stop directly behind another car (and certainly not an hgv) in a queue, i watch the vehicle behind, as it approaches (and yes, it's easy to tell if they are going to be able to stop or not from the point they start braking (or not....) and even converting a full on square hit into a glancing blow by being able to start to drive off the road and out of the way will save your life. Even better, if you see slow or stationary queue ahead, slow down sufficiently early to let the vehicle behind catch up and use them as a "blocker" for your vehicle, but always stop "tyres and tarmac" and preferably a bit more.
Sit in gear, handbrake on if the vehicle behind you is still moving, and if you really have too, drive gently in to the back of the car in front at an angle to avoid a square squeeze.
It'll probably never happen to you, but if it does, those minimal techniques will save your life. You can thank me afterwards.... ;-)
One thing you have possibly missed is don't allow yourself to be forced into a sudden halt in the first place through better planning and anticipation. As well as buying yourself a buffer of time and space, by slowing down gradually, you moderate the traffic behind you. Everyone slows down a little bit more gently and major accidents are less likely.
If you are stopped and exposed, I think what you're talking about is very difficult. To avoid accidents like the Durham one, you would have to take unusual and radical action a few seconds before impact, not without its own risks. Most "I wonder if they'll stop" scenarios end up OK. In the right circumstances you might see it coming but to be absolutely certain and decisive about it is another thing. You can't really practice this and I think it's easy to theorise and far, far harder to act.
If you are stopped and exposed, I think what you're talking about is very difficult. To avoid accidents like the Durham one, you would have to take unusual and radical action a few seconds before impact, not without its own risks. Most "I wonder if they'll stop" scenarios end up OK. In the right circumstances you might see it coming but to be absolutely certain and decisive about it is another thing. You can't really practice this and I think it's easy to theorise and far, far harder to act.
Several cars do see the accident happening behind them and accelerate away and across from the still fast moving lorry behind them. The car and pickup driven by the deceased were stopped well short of the vehicles ahead of them and I really don't see how there is anything you can do to mitigate against this kind of crash.
The other two cars that were hit were a long way ahead of the first two and were lucky that the wagon and crushed cars pushed forward and tumbled into the divider rather than going straight on.
I found it very hard watching that video and hearing the lorry driver whinge and whimper about how it's all so hard for him now being in prison away from family and normal life, having taken the lives of 3 people though stupidity. I hope he serves every second of the 8 years and 10 months he was given and never drives again once his ban is up.
Appalling behavior from a professional driver and his actions after the crash were equally abhorrent, lying to the Police officers on scene to attempt to cover up what he'd just done.
Sadly, this kind of crash happened long before mobile phones were around - driver inattention - and will continue to happen so long as safety systems in trucks that can help prevent it from happening are not mandated.
The other two cars that were hit were a long way ahead of the first two and were lucky that the wagon and crushed cars pushed forward and tumbled into the divider rather than going straight on.
I found it very hard watching that video and hearing the lorry driver whinge and whimper about how it's all so hard for him now being in prison away from family and normal life, having taken the lives of 3 people though stupidity. I hope he serves every second of the 8 years and 10 months he was given and never drives again once his ban is up.
Appalling behavior from a professional driver and his actions after the crash were equally abhorrent, lying to the Police officers on scene to attempt to cover up what he'd just done.
Sadly, this kind of crash happened long before mobile phones were around - driver inattention - and will continue to happen so long as safety systems in trucks that can help prevent it from happening are not mandated.
Maybe if the OP is so concerned he could take his test and drive a truck for six months then come back with an opinion ? Did the IAM test in Britain back in early 00s and tbh thought most of it was tosh , Smith System is way simpler with just 6 key points but without the egotistical knobs preaching . Discuss lol
fttm said:
Maybe if the OP is so concerned he could take his test and drive a truck for six months then come back with an opinion ? Did the IAM test in Britain back in early 00s and tbh thought most of it was tosh , Smith System is way simpler with just 6 key points but without the egotistical knobs preaching . Discuss lol
Isn't one of the key points to always leave yourself a way out, which is what the OP is saying?fttm said:
Maybe if the OP is so concerned he could take his test and drive a truck for six months then come back with an opinion ? Did the IAM test in Britain back in early 00s and tbh thought most of it was tosh , Smith System is way simpler with just 6 key points but without the egotistical knobs preaching . Discuss lol
5 Keys.The OP has valid points, like others on here, I will always be as concerned by what comes behind as what is in front… probably more so as the traffic in front is innocuous and that behind is volatile.
A friend doing the same a few years back had a speeding lorry do exactly what is described, the space he had left allowed him to move left where, though he clipped another car, he had very little damage, the lorry stopped several inches into the car that had been in front of him, he would otherwise have been squashed very flat, his children in the back of the car would definitely not have survived. His planning, observation and action changed what would have been a fatal accident into a minor accident with some collateral paint / metal damage, but little human damage…
A friend doing the same a few years back had a speeding lorry do exactly what is described, the space he had left allowed him to move left where, though he clipped another car, he had very little damage, the lorry stopped several inches into the car that had been in front of him, he would otherwise have been squashed very flat, his children in the back of the car would definitely not have survived. His planning, observation and action changed what would have been a fatal accident into a minor accident with some collateral paint / metal damage, but little human damage…
Mandat said:
rampageturke said:
I think most of what you said is irrelevant when you have a t
t in an artic looking at a dating website at 56-60mph
The measures I have set out are specifically intended to deal with a situation like this.t in an artic looking at a dating website at 56-60mphI'm intrigued why you think the measures are irrelevant
rampageturke said:
you can't predict the unpredictable
Crashes like this have happened in the past, and will continue to happen in the future.On the basis that such crashes will occur, it is reasonable to be prepared to take evasive action if it happens to you.
rampageturke said:
this is all happening in a second or less
At 56mph the HGV is covering 25m per second. If you can see the HGV 300m behind you, there are 12s before impact. Even at 100m behind you, you would still have 4s to put your escape plan into action. MKnight702 said:
Mandat said:
rampageturke said:
I think most of what you said is irrelevant when you have a tt in an artic looking at a dating website at 56-60mph
The measures I have set out are specifically intended to deal with a situation like this.t in an artic looking at a dating website at 56-60mphI'm intrigued why you think the measures are irrelevant
rampageturke said:
you can't predict the unpredictable
Crashes like this have happened in the past, and will continue to happen in the future.On the basis that such crashes will occur, it is reasonable to be prepared to take evasive action if it happens to you.
rampageturke said:
this is all happening in a second or less
At 56mph the HGV is covering 25m per second. If you can see the HGV 300m behind you, there are 12s before impact. Even at 100m behind you, you would still have 4s to put your escape plan into action. If there is no one at all behind you, then stop 100m or more behind the cars in front, hazard lights on. Pick at that time the path of least resistance, ie thegap you could squeeze yourself into if needed.
if there are vehicles in sight behind you, slow down till they have caught up and control how they decelerateso you arent at risk of being collected at full speed by those vehicles.
A modern car is strong, really, really strong, but not strong enough to prevent serious injury in a sandwich type accident, especially with HGVS that tend to override lower cars (and hence miss the crash structures as happened in this crash (in the footage you can see the completely non deformed primary frontal crash structure on the deceased's vehicle).
56 mph is 25 m/s, assuming 1m of total accel distance (crumple zones) from a square on hit directly from behind, and assuming worst case of the thing that hits you is so massive it doesn't slow at all, that's a 60g impact. Massive, but in a modern car and seat, from behind, that is completely survivable. if however you then go on to be shunted into something in front of you that also doesn't move a lot, the game is up.
I think some are being a little harsh on the OP.
As a motorcycle rider, I am hyper aware of what is going on around me.
At junctions and traffic lights I notice that other bikers and car drivers just stare straight ahead (or play with phones) rather than just taking a look around to be aware of what's going on around you. Stay alert.
Long before this terrible incident I have always been nervous of stopped or slowing traffic on fast roads and will be watching behind as well as in front and either side.
In some cases there may well be eff all you can do but I always wonder if the drivers in other incidents knew what hit them.
Busy chatting to passengers, lost in music, thinking about something at work.
I wonder about the people who were run over in that terrorist situation on the bridge in London. How aware were they prior to that car crossing the pavement.
Maybe I'm a nut but I just try to keep on my toes whether walking, driving or riding but many people seem to have their head in the clouds.
I'm no driving (or pavement) god and I can get caught unawares too, especially if I have a passenger to chat to or using the hands free phone. All bad distractions.
So I think that the OP is just saying stay aware at all times, it may save yours and others lives.
As a motorcycle rider, I am hyper aware of what is going on around me.
At junctions and traffic lights I notice that other bikers and car drivers just stare straight ahead (or play with phones) rather than just taking a look around to be aware of what's going on around you. Stay alert.
Long before this terrible incident I have always been nervous of stopped or slowing traffic on fast roads and will be watching behind as well as in front and either side.
In some cases there may well be eff all you can do but I always wonder if the drivers in other incidents knew what hit them.
Busy chatting to passengers, lost in music, thinking about something at work.
I wonder about the people who were run over in that terrorist situation on the bridge in London. How aware were they prior to that car crossing the pavement.
Maybe I'm a nut but I just try to keep on my toes whether walking, driving or riding but many people seem to have their head in the clouds.
I'm no driving (or pavement) god and I can get caught unawares too, especially if I have a passenger to chat to or using the hands free phone. All bad distractions.
So I think that the OP is just saying stay aware at all times, it may save yours and others lives.
I always leave my hazard lights on if I'm at the back of the queue and keep an eye on the rear view mirror.
PistonTim said:
If you left a 50m gap around here they would be at least 12 cars in it plus you'd look like a tool.
This, always leave a small gap and leave the handbrake on but if you have too large a gap someone from another lane will duck into it.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff