Box Junction

[Obiwanw]

Last comment to you Phil as you clearly don’t get it. It isn’t about what I want and it’s disappointing that you put it that way. I can explain the scenario to you but I can’t understand it for you.

The scenario I’ve described happens in practice. If everyone waited until it was 100% guaranteed that you could exit then there would be no point ever entering the box. What would result (quite rightly) is objection from other road users as the previous poster pointed out.

You don’t get it that’s fine.

I’ll post any response I get from the Highway Code people.

[jamei303]

Junctions and any accompanying traffic signals should be designed so that there is no routine risk of someone waiting to turn right in a box finding their exit becomes blocked by oncoming vehicles that have turned left into the same road.

[PhilAsia]

Obiwanw said:

Last comment to you Phil as you clearly don’t get it. It isn’t about what I want and it’s disappointing that you put it that way. I can explain the scenario to you but I can’t understand it for you.

The scenario I’ve described happens in practice. If everyone waited until it was 100% guaranteed that you could exit then there would be no point ever entering the box. What would result (quite rightly) is objection from other road users as the previous poster pointed out.

You don’t get it that’s fine.

I’ll post any response I get from the Highway Code people.

Box junctions are to keep that particular junction CLEAR and free-flowing. A driver/rider stuck in the junction because they have have no forethought creates a scenario where the junction is BLOCKED - exactly what the junction is designed to avoid...And I don't get it...

Edited by PhilAsia on Sunday 18th September 12:32

Edited by PhilAsia on Sunday 18th September 12:37

[wazztie16]

PistonTim said:

Yup, if you stop in a box junction for any reason you can expect a ticket if its monitored.

Incorrect. As alluded to, you can stop in one if you're turning right, your exit is clear and there's oncoming traffic preventing you from making your manoeuvre.

[PhilAsia]

wazztie16 said:

PistonTim said:

Yup, if you stop in a box junction for any reason you can expect a ticket if its monitored.

Incorrect. As alluded to, you can stop in one if you're turning right, your exit is clear and there's oncoming traffic preventing you from making your manoeuvre.

You can be the 10th vehicle in the box as long as you can complete.

[What The Deuces]

PhilAsia said:

You can be the 10th vehicle in the box as long as you can complete.

Rule 174 makes no mention of 'as long as you can complete' It says you can stop in the box if your exit is clear and you are blocked only by oncoming traffic or traffic turning right

I think you even posted that yourself....

[PhilAsia]

What The Deuces said:

PhilAsia said:

You can be the 10th vehicle in the box as long as you can complete.

Rule 174 makes no mention of 'as long as you can complete' It says you can stop in the box if your exit is clear and you are blocked only by oncoming traffic or traffic turning right

I think you even posted that yourself....

Yes, I did. However, if a vehicle subsequently occupies that "clear" area, then you are now stopped in the box illegally as your exit is not clear.

[What The Deuces]

PhilAsia said:

Yes, I did. However, if a vehicle subsequently occupies that "clear" area, then you are now stopped in the box illegally as your exit is not clear.

I don't agree, if the vehicle preventing the exit was an oncoming vehicle then you are stopped legally i

[croyde]

There are many boxes here in London where you have to forecast if you could leave once entering for if you waited for it to clear you'd never make any progress.

I find it a bit of a lottery.

There's a junction near me that allows traffic in from the left to turn left but it's just before the Chiswick roundabout that is controlled by lights.

If you are on the main road and wait at the box hoping for the way forward to clear, then someone from the left will dive in and block your way.

You have to time it perfectly or risk a ticket.

[monthou]

PhilAsia said:

What The Deuces said:

PhilAsia said:

You can be the 10th vehicle in the box as long as you can complete.

Rule 174 makes no mention of 'as long as you can complete' It says you can stop in the box if your exit is clear and you are blocked only by oncoming traffic or traffic turning right

I think you even posted that yourself....

Yes, I did. However, if a vehicle subsequently occupies that "clear" area, then you are now stopped in the box illegally as your exit is not clear.

That's something of a reach. Where is it written?

[TedStriker]

Isn't the point here that the law only refers to the point at which you enter the box junction? If you enter when the exit is clear and it is subsequently blocked then you have done nothing wrong.

There is no reference to being in the box junction, only entering.

[monthou]

TedStriker said:

Isn't the point here that the law only refers to the point at which you enter the box junction? If you enter when the exit is clear and it is subsequently blocked then you have done nothing wrong.

There is no reference to being in the box junction, only entering.

That's how I understand it.

[PhilAsia]

monthou said:

PhilAsia said:

What The Deuces said:

PhilAsia said:

You can be the 10th vehicle in the box as long as you can complete.

Rule 174 makes no mention of 'as long as you can complete' It says you can stop in the box if your exit is clear and you are blocked only by oncoming traffic or traffic turning right

I think you even posted that yourself....

Yes, I did. However, if a vehicle subsequently occupies that "clear" area, then you are now stopped in the box illegally as your exit is not clear.

That's something of a reach. Where is it written?

Yes. A reach for the cheque book.

Do you ever anticipate traffic lights changing?

I take note of things and anticipate scenarios that could reasonably be expected to happen. Example

a) if I cannot 100% guarantee to be able to complete I do not move forward. Same as when I am driving straight on or left.

b) if I can see that I will definitely be able to complete, then I do move forward.

If I move forward and cannot complete I am now contravening the HC and can reasonably be expected to be fined for a lack of forethought.

[monthou]

PhilAsia said:

monthou said:

PhilAsia said:

What The Deuces said:

PhilAsia said:

You can be the 10th vehicle in the box as long as you can complete.

Rule 174 makes no mention of 'as long as you can complete' It says you can stop in the box if your exit is clear and you are blocked only by oncoming traffic or traffic turning right

I think you even posted that yourself....

Yes, I did. However, if a vehicle subsequently occupies that "clear" area, then you are now stopped in the box illegally as your exit is not clear.

That's something of a reach. Where is it written?

Yes. A reach for the cheque book.

Do you ever anticipate traffic lights changing?

I take note of things and anticipate scenarios that could reasonably be expected to happen. Example

a) if I cannot 100% guarantee to be able to complete I do not move forward. Same as when I am driving straight on or left.

b) if I can see that I will definitely be able to complete, then I do move forward.

If I move forward and cannot complete I am now contravening the HC and can reasonably be expected to be fined for a lack of forethought.

This is just you making stuff up.
If you can legitimately enter and wait to turn right then that satisfies the highway code.
Quote the legislation or Highway Code excerpt that supports your view. Or not.

[PhilAsia]

monthou said:

This is just you making stuff up.
If you can legitimately enter and wait to turn right then that satisfies the highway code.
Quote the legislation or Highway Code excerpt that supports your view. Or not.

"Clear"

And those that have indicated that they (or someone they know) were fined.

[What The Deuces]

PhilAsia said:

Yes. A reach for the cheque book.

Do you ever anticipate traffic lights changing?

I take note of things and anticipate scenarios that could reasonably be expected to happen. Example

a) if I cannot 100% guarantee to be able to complete I do not move forward. Same as when I am driving straight on or left.

b) if I can see that I will definitely be able to complete, then I do move forward.

If I move forward and cannot complete I am now contravening the HC and can reasonably be expected to be fined for a lack of forethought.

Who cares how you ride your high horse into a box junction, we're discussing the law not your (odd) opinion on it?

[PhilAsia]

monthou said:

This is just you making stuff up.
If you can legitimately enter and wait to turn right then that satisfies the highway code.
Quote the legislation or Highway Code excerpt that supports your view. Or not.

See parabolica and PistonTim on page 1.

[monthou]

PhilAsia said:

monthou said:

This is just you making stuff up.
If you can legitimately enter and wait to turn right then that satisfies the highway code.
Quote the legislation or Highway Code excerpt that supports your view. Or not.

"Clear"

And those that have indicated that they (or someone they know) were fined.

Is that your idea of referencing the Highway Code?

Highway Code said:

174
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (download ‘Road markings’). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.

That's all I can see. Nothing about if you're waiting to turn right and the exit is no longer clear you're liable to having your trousers pulled down.
As before - if there's something else, reference it.

[PhilAsia]

monthou said:

TedStriker said:

Isn't the point here that the law only refers to the point at which you enter the box junction? If you enter when the exit is clear and it is subsequently blocked then you have done nothing wrong.

There is no reference to being in the box junction, only entering.

That's how I understand it.

The HC states: "...Enter a box junction only if your exit road is clear..." not "when".

"Only if" does not have a time frame appended to it, nor does "enter". The way I read it is that anticipation should be part of a driver's skill set, as the idea behind a box junction is to keep the cross-hatched area of the junction clear - not anticipating the actions of others leaves the junction blocked and why the offenders are fined

[monthou]

PhilAsia said:

The HC states: "...Enter a box junction only if your exit road is clear..." not "when".

"Only if" does not have a time frame appended to it, nor does "enter". The way I read it is that anticipation should be part of a driver's skill set, as the idea behind a box junction is to keep the cross-hatched area of the junction clear - not anticipating the actions of others leaves the junction blocked and why the offenders are fined

You're reading things that aren't there.