Am i the only person who indicates?
Discussion
Dr Jekyll said:
RobM77 said:
If none of the above could possibly apply, so be it, but quite often one of the above could apply. I just always indicate anyway; it covers me in case I've made a mistake in my observation.
No it doesn't.RobM77 said:
Moving back to L1 is usually classed as another manoeuvre. It's useful to signal for many reasons:I'm not saying i'd never indicate to change lane left, but if I don't need to then I don't.
As a rule I change left once I see the car i've overtaken in my rear view mirror, this ensures i'm not cutting them off. The only people who take offence are the incompetent f**kwits who like to pick at others peoples driving based on what THEY think the highway code says (regardless of what it actually says).
Edited by lyonspride on Tuesday 19th September 00:23
IcedKiwi said:
Do you often find that "lunatics" pull out in front of you whilst on roundabouts?
People waiting at 12 are not aware of any road markings you have at your 6 o'clock entry which tells you which is the correct lane. They don't know whether there are road markings for using the left lane to go right, right lane to go straight ahead or left, or both lanes for straight ahead etc.
The only way you can tell them which way you're intending on going is through the use of an indicator.
I think that the tuition mustn't emphasise indication staying on when driving past 12 nowadays. On a given roundabout near home, which is a textbook example of the HC diagram - I keep pulling out on people and or giving them a fright when they fail to indicate (if it was safe for me to do so whilst making a point). It is probably 50% of drivers who follow this poor signalling discipline near me, never used to be an issue when 5-10 years ago.People waiting at 12 are not aware of any road markings you have at your 6 o'clock entry which tells you which is the correct lane. They don't know whether there are road markings for using the left lane to go right, right lane to go straight ahead or left, or both lanes for straight ahead etc.
The only way you can tell them which way you're intending on going is through the use of an indicator.
lyonspride said:
RobM77 said:
Moving back to L1 is usually classed as another manoeuvre. It's useful to signal for many reasons:I'm not saying i'd never indicate to change lane left, but if I don't need to then I don't.
Not everyone is going to move back to lane one after an overtake (known as lane hogging - it happens!), and other people, such as those in my examples given earlier, may need to know what you're about to do - are you a lane hogger, or are you moving back in, have you spotted a parking layby at the last second? etc etc. Furthermore, the timing of the move back to L1 will vary between people. For example, if there's a sliproad up ahead and cars are waiting to join the Mway/DC, then some people in L2 will move back to lane one and block those joining, whereas others will stay out. Yes, the former group are a
holes, but it happens and people need to know what you're doing so they can make a plan. As always with these discussions, the disclaimer is that nobody's going to make a decision based on an indicator that would be critical to having and accident or not, but those decisions are helpful to smooth and safe flow of traffic, and by not indicating you can inhibit that, which is bad driving.Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 19th September 13:27
RobM77 said:
You're not indicating for yourself, you're indicating for others - it's a method of communication. Those other people may not know this.
Not everyone is going to move back to lane one after an overtake (known as lane hogging - it happens!), and other people, such as those in my examples given earlier, may need to know what you're about to do - are you a lane hogger, or are you moving back in, have you spotted a parking layby at the last second? etc etc. Furthermore, the timing of the move back to L1 will vary between people. For example, if there's a sliproad up ahead and cars are waiting to join the Mway/DC, then some people in L2 will move back to lane one and block those joining, whereas others will stay out. Yes, the former group are aholes, but it happens and people need to know what you're doing so they can make a plan. As always with these discussions, the disclaimer is that nobody's going to make a decision based on an indicator that would be critical to having and accident or not, but those decisions are helpful to smooth and safe flow of traffic, and by not indicating you can inhibit that, which is bad driving.
Well the IAM would disagree. They very much focus on being aware of surroundings and indicating only when required. This means thinking about what your doing, what's going on and who is around you.Not everyone is going to move back to lane one after an overtake (known as lane hogging - it happens!), and other people, such as those in my examples given earlier, may need to know what you're about to do - are you a lane hogger, or are you moving back in, have you spotted a parking layby at the last second? etc etc. Furthermore, the timing of the move back to L1 will vary between people. For example, if there's a sliproad up ahead and cars are waiting to join the Mway/DC, then some people in L2 will move back to lane one and block those joining, whereas others will stay out. Yes, the former group are a
holes, but it happens and people need to know what you're doing so they can make a plan. As always with these discussions, the disclaimer is that nobody's going to make a decision based on an indicator that would be critical to having and accident or not, but those decisions are helpful to smooth and safe flow of traffic, and by not indicating you can inhibit that, which is bad driving.Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 19th September 13:27
When driving becomes automatic (ie not thinking) then complacency creeps in and I would argue that complacency is a serious hazard on the roads.
Quite helpful
http://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/a...
Edited by lyonspride on Tuesday 19th September 14:38
lyonspride said:
RobM77 said:
You're not indicating for yourself, you're indicating for others - it's a method of communication. Those other people may not know this.
Not everyone is going to move back to lane one after an overtake (known as lane hogging - it happens!), and other people, such as those in my examples given earlier, may need to know what you're about to do - are you a lane hogger, or are you moving back in, have you spotted a parking layby at the last second? etc etc. Furthermore, the timing of the move back to L1 will vary between people. For example, if there's a sliproad up ahead and cars are waiting to join the Mway/DC, then some people in L2 will move back to lane one and block those joining, whereas others will stay out. Yes, the former group are aholes, but it happens and people need to know what you're doing so they can make a plan. As always with these discussions, the disclaimer is that nobody's going to make a decision based on an indicator that would be critical to having and accident or not, but those decisions are helpful to smooth and safe flow of traffic, and by not indicating you can inhibit that, which is bad driving.
Well the IAM would disagree. They very much focus on being aware of surroundings and indicating only when required. This means thinking about what your doing, what's going on and who is around you.Not everyone is going to move back to lane one after an overtake (known as lane hogging - it happens!), and other people, such as those in my examples given earlier, may need to know what you're about to do - are you a lane hogger, or are you moving back in, have you spotted a parking layby at the last second? etc etc. Furthermore, the timing of the move back to L1 will vary between people. For example, if there's a sliproad up ahead and cars are waiting to join the Mway/DC, then some people in L2 will move back to lane one and block those joining, whereas others will stay out. Yes, the former group are a
holes, but it happens and people need to know what you're doing so they can make a plan. As always with these discussions, the disclaimer is that nobody's going to make a decision based on an indicator that would be critical to having and accident or not, but those decisions are helpful to smooth and safe flow of traffic, and by not indicating you can inhibit that, which is bad driving.Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 19th September 13:27
When driving becomes automatic (ie not thinking) then complacency creeps in and I would argue that complacency is a serious hazard on the roads.
Quite helpful
http://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/a...
Edited by lyonspride on Tuesday 19th September 14:38
I agree wholeheartedly with much of their stance, and have benefitted from my driver training, but I disagree quite strongly with a number of their points.I am not suggesting that signalling becomes automatic, on the contrary, indicating should always be done with awareness of who you're indicating to, why, how and when. It should be an active form of communication. Just because you always do something doesn't mean it has to be automatic and brainless. I'm merely suggesting that a little more imagination be used when considering who would benefit. Far too much IAM thinking is superficial. There are some situations where indicating is not necessary, but for the overwhelming majority of times, failing to indicate is simply a sign of not thinking of all the possible consequences of what might happen next.
Another classic example is IAM drivers who don't indicate joining a motorway via a sliproad. How do the people already on the motorway know whether you're driving in an extra lane which will add to the motorway, or on a sliproad that will terminate?
lyonspride said:
RobM77 said:
You're not indicating for yourself, you're indicating for others - it's a method of communication. Those other people may not know this.
Not everyone is going to move back to lane one after an overtake (known as lane hogging - it happens!), and other people, such as those in my examples given earlier, may need to know what you're about to do - are you a lane hogger, or are you moving back in, have you spotted a parking layby at the last second? etc etc. Furthermore, the timing of the move back to L1 will vary between people. For example, if there's a sliproad up ahead and cars are waiting to join the Mway/DC, then some people in L2 will move back to lane one and block those joining, whereas others will stay out. Yes, the former group are aholes, but it happens and people need to know what you're doing so they can make a plan. As always with these discussions, the disclaimer is that nobody's going to make a decision based on an indicator that would be critical to having and accident or not, but those decisions are helpful to smooth and safe flow of traffic, and by not indicating you can inhibit that, which is bad driving.
Well the IAM would disagree. They very much focus on being aware of surroundings and indicating only when required. This means thinking about what your doing, what's going on and who is around you.Not everyone is going to move back to lane one after an overtake (known as lane hogging - it happens!), and other people, such as those in my examples given earlier, may need to know what you're about to do - are you a lane hogger, or are you moving back in, have you spotted a parking layby at the last second? etc etc. Furthermore, the timing of the move back to L1 will vary between people. For example, if there's a sliproad up ahead and cars are waiting to join the Mway/DC, then some people in L2 will move back to lane one and block those joining, whereas others will stay out. Yes, the former group are a
holes, but it happens and people need to know what you're doing so they can make a plan. As always with these discussions, the disclaimer is that nobody's going to make a decision based on an indicator that would be critical to having and accident or not, but those decisions are helpful to smooth and safe flow of traffic, and by not indicating you can inhibit that, which is bad driving.Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 19th September 13:27
When driving becomes automatic (ie not thinking) then complacency creeps in and I would argue that complacency is a serious hazard on the roads.
Quite helpful
http://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/a...
Edited by lyonspride on Tuesday 19th September 14:38
The descision for me is simple. If indicating carries no penalty, then i indicate, always. There are a very few, rare, situations where indicating could result in the confusion of other motorists, but generally, there are no downsides to indicating, and therefore it's better, imo, to indicate un-necessarily, but to no detriment, than to fail to indicate when it actually matters.
Max_Torque said:
the problem with this approach, imo, is that us humans are characteristically lazy. If one gets into an autonomous indicating habit, and that habit also includes the other vital steps (mirrors, observation, road positioning, acceleration sense) then that is what you will do, even when you are bored (or tired). Its a similar story to the fact that pilots are taught to do very formal instrument scans, so nothing is missed, either in the heat of a panic moment, or more likely, just due to boredom etc
The descision for me is simple. If indicating carries no penalty, then i indicate, always. There are a very few, rare, situations where indicating could result in the confusion of other motorists, but generally, there are no downsides to indicating, and therefore it's better, imo, to indicate un-necessarily, but to no detriment, than to fail to indicate when it actually matters.
It takes much more effort to think about whether your manoeuvre might affect other road users than to indicate, so it’s the thinking rather than the indication that tends to slip when tiredness or laziness kicks in. That’s why the additional discipline of making an active decision whether to indicate is useful. I try to restrict my indications to circumstances where someone would benefit, but do occasionally find myself signalling unnecessarily and take it as a warning that my concentration is slipping.The descision for me is simple. If indicating carries no penalty, then i indicate, always. There are a very few, rare, situations where indicating could result in the confusion of other motorists, but generally, there are no downsides to indicating, and therefore it's better, imo, to indicate un-necessarily, but to no detriment, than to fail to indicate when it actually matters.
If you indicate properly as a form of communication, then it's unlikely to ever become automatic, because the visual checks that proceed it inform the timing of the indication and remove any fear of autonomous driving. Essentially, you have to 'wake up' to do the planning stage of a manoeuvre. The only sort of autonomous signalling one ever sees is the 'flick the lever as you change lanes' type of signalling, which is a million miles away from what anyone here is suggesting.
As a simple example, before I consider slowing to leave the motorway or a DC onto a tight sliproad (thus necessitating slowing on the motorway, rather than on the sliproad), I check around me to see if anyone will be affected by me slowing; that's not just people behind me in L1, it's people in L2 or even L3 travelling at my speed and considering tucking in behind me in L1. It's also anyone on the sliproad, such as a workman, or even a pedestrian crossing the sliproad at its end. If I see anyone, then I indicate at a time that I think will benefit them. If not, then I wait and indicate at the III marker, or next to the turning sign etc etc. I do this because my observation is not perfect and this is a safety net in case I've missed anyone - it takes almost no effort to do it and it could improve someone's day or even, in the case of a complete nutter who relies 100% on signalling, prevent an accident. Nutters do exist, but they don't deserve to get run over or be involved in a crash - this is an essential part of advanced driving, looking out for everyone, even those who are driving dangerously.
As a simple example, before I consider slowing to leave the motorway or a DC onto a tight sliproad (thus necessitating slowing on the motorway, rather than on the sliproad), I check around me to see if anyone will be affected by me slowing; that's not just people behind me in L1, it's people in L2 or even L3 travelling at my speed and considering tucking in behind me in L1. It's also anyone on the sliproad, such as a workman, or even a pedestrian crossing the sliproad at its end. If I see anyone, then I indicate at a time that I think will benefit them. If not, then I wait and indicate at the III marker, or next to the turning sign etc etc. I do this because my observation is not perfect and this is a safety net in case I've missed anyone - it takes almost no effort to do it and it could improve someone's day or even, in the case of a complete nutter who relies 100% on signalling, prevent an accident. Nutters do exist, but they don't deserve to get run over or be involved in a crash - this is an essential part of advanced driving, looking out for everyone, even those who are driving dangerously.
GerryAttrick said:
Munter said:
Dear god. We found one.
Try section 186
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/using...
When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise
signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
Yes, that's what I was referring to. It's notable that only on the section relating to turning left does it say continue signalling - straight on requires no signal and right requires signal only on approach.Try section 186
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/using...
When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise
signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
Question of interpretation. I admit that it may appear to be useful to indicate right as a signal that you're not exiting or moving into the left lane, but I would regard this as potentially misleading. If you're in the correct lane for your intended exit and not signalling then your intentions should be obvious.
RobM77 said:
Another classic example is IAM drivers who don't indicate joining a motorway via a sliproad. How do the people already on the motorway know whether you're driving in an extra lane which will add to the motorway, or on a sliproad that will terminate?
Signs and road positioning? 
lyonspride said:
I analyse the situation and indicate as required.
I don't indicate to complete an overtake. remember it's "mirror, signal, manoeuvre", not "mirror, signal, manoeuvre, signal", that applies to motorways as well as normal A roads.
I don't indicate if my direction of travel is obvious, if i'm coming to a lane merge it's pretty obvious there's absolutely nowhere else I could be going, same with right/left turn only lanes.
When travelling at 70 plus on a MW, I would suggest that indicating your every move / change of direction is essential.I don't indicate to complete an overtake. remember it's "mirror, signal, manoeuvre", not "mirror, signal, manoeuvre, signal", that applies to motorways as well as normal A roads.
I don't indicate if my direction of travel is obvious, if i'm coming to a lane merge it's pretty obvious there's absolutely nowhere else I could be going, same with right/left turn only lanes.
Edited by lyonspride on Monday 4th September 08:38
Your direction of travel may be obvious to you, but indication is for all road users, especially pedestrians, who pay no heed to road signs and road markings and are likely, and will, step into your path if no indication is apparent.
Finally, reading through the thread and the many different procedures that PHers observe on RAB, it's no wonder that there is confusion.
Edited by nonsequitur on Saturday 7th October 09:33
nonsequitur said:
When travelling at 70 plus on a MW, I would suggest that indicating your every move / change of direction is essential.
Your direction of travel may be obvious to you, but indication is for all road users, especially pedestrians, who pay no heed to road signs and road markings and are likely, and will, step into your path if no indication is apparent.
Finally, reading through the thread and the many different procedures that PHers observe on RAB, it's no wonder that there is confusion
What if there aren't any road users going to be affected by your manoeuvre?Your direction of travel may be obvious to you, but indication is for all road users, especially pedestrians, who pay no heed to road signs and road markings and are likely, and will, step into your path if no indication is apparent.
Finally, reading through the thread and the many different procedures that PHers observe on RAB, it's no wonder that there is confusion
Dr Jekyll said:
nonsequitur said:
When travelling at 70 plus on a MW, I would suggest that indicating your every move / change of direction is essential.
Your direction of travel may be obvious to you, but indication is for all road users, especially pedestrians, who pay no heed to road signs and road markings and are likely, and will, step into your path if no indication is apparent.
Finally, reading through the thread and the many different procedures that PHers observe on RAB, it's no wonder that there is confusion
What if there aren't any road users going to be affected by your manoeuvre?Your direction of travel may be obvious to you, but indication is for all road users, especially pedestrians, who pay no heed to road signs and road markings and are likely, and will, step into your path if no indication is apparent.
Finally, reading through the thread and the many different procedures that PHers observe on RAB, it's no wonder that there is confusion
nonsequitur said:
Pica-Pica said:
Never indicating is only thinking about yourself
Always indicating is also only thinking about yourself.
Sorry Pica, I don't follow.Always indicating is also only thinking about yourself.
Edited by Pica-Pica on Saturday 7th October 10:44
If you always indicate, then you are not observing enough to recognise the nuances of road users presence and movement that may mean a signal may confuse others or otherwise add to the 'lighting clutter' around. That is just 'I am OK, I signalled'. So that too is selfish.
nonsequitur said:
Dr Jekyll said:
nonsequitur said:
When travelling at 70 plus on a MW, I would suggest that indicating your every move / change of direction is essential.
Your direction of travel may be obvious to you, but indication is for all road users, especially pedestrians, who pay no heed to road signs and road markings and are likely, and will, step into your path if no indication is apparent.
Finally, reading through the thread and the many different procedures that PHers observe on RAB, it's no wonder that there is confusion
What if there aren't any road users going to be affected by your manoeuvre?Your direction of travel may be obvious to you, but indication is for all road users, especially pedestrians, who pay no heed to road signs and road markings and are likely, and will, step into your path if no indication is apparent.
Finally, reading through the thread and the many different procedures that PHers observe on RAB, it's no wonder that there is confusion
lyonspride said:
RobM77 said:
You're not indicating for yourself, you're indicating for others - it's a method of communication. Those other people may not know this.
Not everyone is going to move back to lane one after an overtake (known as lane hogging - it happens!), and other people, such as those in my examples given earlier, may need to know what you're about to do - are you a lane hogger, or are you moving back in, have you spotted a parking layby at the last second? etc etc. Furthermore, the timing of the move back to L1 will vary between people. For example, if there's a sliproad up ahead and cars are waiting to join the Mway/DC, then some people in L2 will move back to lane one and block those joining, whereas others will stay out. Yes, the former group are aholes, but it happens and people need to know what you're doing so they can make a plan. As always with these discussions, the disclaimer is that nobody's going to make a decision based on an indicator that would be critical to having and accident or not, but those decisions are helpful to smooth and safe flow of traffic, and by not indicating you can inhibit that, which is bad driving.
Well the IAM would disagree. They very much focus on being aware of surroundings and indicating only when required. This means thinking about what your doing, what's going on and who is around you.Not everyone is going to move back to lane one after an overtake (known as lane hogging - it happens!), and other people, such as those in my examples given earlier, may need to know what you're about to do - are you a lane hogger, or are you moving back in, have you spotted a parking layby at the last second? etc etc. Furthermore, the timing of the move back to L1 will vary between people. For example, if there's a sliproad up ahead and cars are waiting to join the Mway/DC, then some people in L2 will move back to lane one and block those joining, whereas others will stay out. Yes, the former group are a
holes, but it happens and people need to know what you're doing so they can make a plan. As always with these discussions, the disclaimer is that nobody's going to make a decision based on an indicator that would be critical to having and accident or not, but those decisions are helpful to smooth and safe flow of traffic, and by not indicating you can inhibit that, which is bad driving.Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 19th September 13:27
When driving becomes automatic (ie not thinking) then complacency creeps in and I would argue that complacency is a serious hazard on the roads.
Quite helpful
http://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/a...
Edited by lyonspride on Tuesday 19th September 14:38
This issue in this thread is that right turns a driver waits to turn but no indication the turns with the indicator last minute. Or they never signal no matter the turn.
The whole thread went from why to who will benefit without the AIM lot going "yep you are right the idiots fail to indicate and there is a difference between .
Or we are if someone can benefit "Well how about me behind you useless f
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