A1 HGV crash – What could have been done differently?

[Mandat]

fttm said:

Maybe if the OP is so concerned he could take his test and drive a truck for six months then come back with an opinion ? Did the IAM test in Britain back in early 00s and tbh thought most of it was tosh , Smith System is way simpler with just 6 key points but without the egotistical knobs preaching . Discuss lol

What does this even mean?

I'm happy to give you an opinion, but what is your actual question / point?

[CABC]

Cars now auto brake to avoid collisions and the system is normally impossible or tricky to turn off. Surely something could improve the situation lorries? From alarms to at least some braking to avoid fatalities.

[Mandat]

MKnight702 said:

I don't think you are wrong to be prepared, however, I'm curious just what benefit this hypothetical 50m of space in front of you would be, especially if you have a barrier to your right and a solid wall of other cars to your left. Would you take the split second decision to ram through the queuing cars on your left on on the basis that you believe the truck behind you won't stop, or try to make another lane in front of you by forcing your way between the cars in front and the barrier?

It all depends on the circumstances, and each situation will be different.

The A1 crash is an extreme example of a full speed runaway HGV, and I think that a more typical scenario would be where a driver behind is momentarily distracted and misses the slowing / stopping traffic in front, and then starts to brake later than required.

In such a situation, you are going to be rear ended if they don't have enough space in which to stop behind you. By creating a buffer zone in front, you give yourself the opportunity to move forwards and to create space behind you, so that you are not rear-ended.

In the situation of the A1 crash, a buffer zone in front would not have been sufficient in itself, and a collision would have been inevitable unless you took active measures to get out of the way of the HGV.

[c6r]

Sad to see some good advice being criticised by the sort of people from NPE who cry 'victim blaming' as if it's some sort of trump card that wins internet points.

It's not hard to take simple measures as described by OP and others that might help - emphasis on the 'might'. Bikers do this sort of thing routinely as a matter of self-preservation, but it seems many car drivers are offended at the idea and just take the 'st happens there's nothing you can do' approach.

Maybe in this case it wouldn't have helped, but on another day, maybe the loon in the HGV looks up from facebook a few seconds earlier, slams the brakes on and ploughs into the traffic at only 30mph instead of 60, then it probably will make a difference. It's about reducing risk, not guaranteeing safety, or blaming anyone for not doing it.

[croyde]

A lot of people do seem to do as little as possible to mitigate risk despite the fact that we live in such risk averse times.

But then it's always someone else's fault and who can I due.

Stopped my son from walking in front of a moving car, his retort!

Dad, it'll be their fault!

It's like the attitude to driving in India. On steep mountainous roads you'll see bus and lorry wrecks in the ravines, but despite this they still drive like nutters and overtake on blind bends into on coming traffic.

It won't be their fault, it'll be the will of Allah.

[FiF]

Part of the issue is that for many people on a motorway they're lulled into a state where by the time they've realised that up ahead are vehicles stopped, slowing rapidly or going slowly they are already too close.

The only thing you can do, apart from the OP's suggestions, is to try and make yourself as conspicuous as possible. As I mentioned on the other thread not unknown for me to have hazards going, flash the rear fog lights and pulse the brake lights. Then when it's clear the traffic approaching from behind is paying attention and stopping short move forward into the space you've left but not completely.

As I and others have also observed full liveried traffic units with full disco lights playing regularly get stuffed when sitting in a fend off position.

Gets difficult to take off into an escape route if on an all lanes running section with no hard shoulder, all lanes blocked and barriers close to road edge.

[fttm]

CABC said:

Cars now auto brake to avoid collisions and the system is normally impossible or tricky to turn off. Surely something could improve the situation lorries? From alarms to at least some braking to avoid fatalities.

Technology is already out there , installed in trucks , but as ever it rarely works as intended . The radar sees telegraph poles on curves , recognises road numbers as speed limits etc etc , all sold under the "safety "banner but doesn't work as intended . Who needs an LGV to slam on the brakes mid winter on a slick surface because the radar detected something that isn't there ?
Carry on blaming truckers , overweight dangerously speeding juggernauts or whatever else they're tagged with , until you've driven one for a while you haven't got an insight into the crap the drivers tolerate on a hourly/daily basis from joe public ,which is why I suggested to the OP he should walk a mile in their shoes before commenting .

[NNH]

croyde said:

I think some are being a little harsh on the OP.

As a motorcycle rider, I am hyper aware of what is going on around me.

At junctions and traffic lights I notice that other bikers and car drivers just stare straight ahead (or play with phones) rather than just taking a look around to be aware of what's going on around you. Stay alert.

Long before this terrible incident I have always been nervous of stopped or slowing traffic on fast roads and will be watching behind as well as in front and either side.

In some cases there may well be eff all you can do but I always wonder if the drivers in other incidents knew what hit them.

Busy chatting to passengers, lost in music, thinking about something at work.

I wonder about the people who were run over in that terrorist situation on the bridge in London. How aware were they prior to that car crossing the pavement.

Maybe I'm a nut but I just try to keep on my toes whether walking, driving or riding but many people seem to have their head in the clouds.

I'm no driving (or pavement) god and I can get caught unawares too, especially if I have a passenger to chat to or using the hands free phone. All bad distractions.

So I think that the OP is just saying stay aware at all times, it may save yours and others lives.

I'm also a rider, and the OP is describing just another day on a bike. For some reason, the IAM experts are all clutching their pearls at this.

[trashbat]

NNH said:

I'm also a rider, and the OP is describing just another day on a bike. For some reason, the IAM experts are all clutching their pearls at this.

The IAM etc teach the stuff the OP is talking about. I don't know who the one or two dissenting people on this thread are, but probably not "IAM experts" for what it's worth.

[Frik]

croyde said:

It won't be their fault, it'll be the will of Allah.

In India?

[croyde]

Frik said:

croyde said:

It won't be their fault, it'll be the will of Allah.

In India?

Got that wrong. The will of deity of the region.

[FiF]

trashbat said:

NNH said:

I'm also a rider, and the OP is describing just another day on a bike. For some reason, the IAM experts are all clutching their pearls at this.

The IAM etc teach the stuff the OP is talking about. I don't know who the one or two dissenting people on this thread are, but probably not "IAM experts" for what it's worth.

Agreed, there's a couple of riders or amendments that one should add to the OP's list but a lot of it is common sense.

Also agree with an earlier comment from another that once they're stationary in a queue, or even just sat at lights, say, too many people descend into a state where they just stop observing what's going on in front, at the sides and behind. Cue the first words in statement, "Suddenly..."

[freedman]

fttm said:

Technology is already out there , installed in trucks , but as ever it rarely works as intended . The radar sees telegraph poles on curves , recognises road numbers as speed limits etc etc , all sold under the "safety "banner but doesn't work as intended . Who needs an LGV to slam on the brakes mid winter on a slick surface because the radar detected something that isn't there ?
Carry on blaming truckers , overweight dangerously speeding juggernauts or whatever else they're tagged with , until you've driven one for a while you haven't got an insight into the crap the drivers tolerate on a hourly/daily basis from joe public ,which is why I suggested to the OP he should walk a mile in their shoes before commenting .

I think it’s pretty safe to say the driver of the HGV was entirely to blame for the crash in this instance, don’t you?

[Mandat]

fttm said:

........... which is why I suggested to the OP he should walk a mile in their shoes before commenting .

I still don't know what point you are trying to make.

What is it that you want me to comment on?

[croyde]

Mandat said:

fttm said:

........... which is why I suggested to the OP he should walk a mile in their shoes before commenting .

I still don't know what point you are trying to make.

What is it that you want me to comment on?

I think he wants you to drive an HGV whilst surfing porn sites before you can make comments.

[anonymous-user]

If you see it coming and you have time, leave the car and leg it to the hard shoulder and keep running if space allows, ideally to the top of a long grassy hill.

Once a jam starts, your car isn’t going to have space to manoeuvre anywhere.

[SpeckledJim]

freedman said:

fttm said:

Technology is already out there , installed in trucks , but as ever it rarely works as intended . The radar sees telegraph poles on curves , recognises road numbers as speed limits etc etc , all sold under the "safety "banner but doesn't work as intended . Who needs an LGV to slam on the brakes mid winter on a slick surface because the radar detected something that isn't there ?
Carry on blaming truckers , overweight dangerously speeding juggernauts or whatever else they're tagged with , until you've driven one for a while you haven't got an insight into the crap the drivers tolerate on a hourly/daily basis from joe public ,which is why I suggested to the OP he should walk a mile in their shoes before commenting .

I think it’s pretty safe to say the driver of the HGV was entirely to blame for the crash in this instance, don’t you?

Yes 100%. But if the cars at the back of the queue had had 50 clear yards in front of them, and had their hazards on, and been flashing their brake lights, then the outcomes could potentially have been less awful.

Blame and outcome being separate.

[anonymous-user]

Once your engrossed in your phone content there is very little that will break that focus.

[Pica-Pica]

garyhun said:

Once your engrossed in your phone content there is very little that will break that focus.

A horn, maybe?

[The big yin]

The comments on here from non believers are shocking , for the time it takes to remain say 30 yds behind the car in front lives could be saved in the event of an accident as then you would have time to slow and stop safely .
The queue on the A74 on Tuesday was horrendous and mostly all cars were tailgating and the car behind me couldn't wait two seconds and pushed by to just queue on the outside lane as I was already in lane 1 and eventually passed them as their q was a lot slower , There was a wide load and escort holding traffic up .
It seems no body has a second to spare nowadays .
I always leave a gap to the car in front and hate the way people tailgate and always put my hazards on when traffic seems to be slowing quickly and still the numpties behind doesn't notice .
If leaving a gap saves me from being rearended and having all the hassle associated with it I will leave a gap and to hell with those that do not like it .
Sorry rant over ....!!!!