Box Junction

[PhilAsia]

monthou said:

PhilAsia said:

The HC states: "...Enter a box junction only if your exit road is clear..." not "when".

"Only if" does not have a time frame appended to it, nor does "enter". The way I read it is that anticipation should be part of a driver's skill set, as the idea behind a box junction is to keep the cross-hatched area of the junction clear - not anticipating the actions of others leaves the junction blocked and why the offenders are fined

You're reading things that aren't there.

So are the courts.

"...We use "only if" to express a strong condition, often an order or command, to mean ‘on the condition that’........"

[monthou]

PhilAsia said:

monthou said:

PhilAsia said:

The HC states: "...Enter a box junction only if your exit road is clear..." not "when".

"Only if" does not have a time frame appended to it, nor does "enter". The way I read it is that anticipation should be part of a driver's skill set, as the idea behind a box junction is to keep the cross-hatched area of the junction clear - not anticipating the actions of others leaves the junction blocked and why the offenders are fined

You're reading things that aren't there.

So are the courts.

"...We use "only if" to express a strong condition, often an order or command, to mean ‘on the condition that’........"

This is just rubbish.
"You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear."
That's it. If the exit is clear you can enter. If you're going straight on or left that means you can't stop.
But ...
"However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. "
So you can enter and queue to turn right, only if the exit is clear when you enter the junction

This is not complicated.
Unless and until you actually quote something different from the HC or legislation.

Edited by monthou on Wednesday 21st September 16:12

[PhilAsia]

monthou said:

PhilAsia said:

monthou said:

PhilAsia said:

The HC states: "...Enter a box junction only if your exit road is clear..." not "when".

"Only if" does not have a time frame appended to it, nor does "enter". The way I read it is that anticipation should be part of a driver's skill set, as the idea behind a box junction is to keep the cross-hatched area of the junction clear - not anticipating the actions of others leaves the junction blocked and why the offenders are fined

You're reading things that aren't there.

So are the courts.

"...We use "only if" to express a strong condition, often an order or command, to mean ‘on the condition that’........"

This is just rubbish.
"You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear."
That's it. If the exit is clear you can enter. If you're going straight on or left that means you can't stop.
But ...
"However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. "
So you can enter and queue to turn right, only if the exit is clear when you enter the junction

This is not complicated.
Unless and until you actually quote something different from the HC or legislation.

Edited by monthou on Wednesday 21st September 16:12

OK. Answer this:

You are turning right and you see an oncoming truck signaling left. At present the road to the right is clear, but will be blocked once the truck turns and stops in the traffic. You move forward to turn right with your interpretation of the HC, yes? It is CLEAR...

[monthou]

PhilAsia said:

OK. Answer this:

You are turning right and you see an oncoming truck signaling left. At present the road to the right is clear, but will be blocked once the truck turns and stops in the traffic. You move forward to turn right with your interpretation of the HC, yes? It is CLEAR...

If the only thing that informs your driving is what you believe the letter of the law to be I suppose you might.
Who does that though? It would be stupid.

I'm happy for you to show that your interpretation is correct. But only by referencing the HC or the legislation, not by making it up.

[PhilAsia]

monthou said:

PhilAsia said:

OK. Answer this:

You are turning right and you see an oncoming truck signaling left. At present the road to the right is clear, but will be blocked once the truck turns and stops in the traffic. You move forward to turn right with your interpretation of the HC, yes? It is CLEAR...

If the only thing that informs your driving is what you believe the letter of the law to be I suppose you might.
Who does that though? It would be stupid.

I'm happy for you to show that your interpretation is correct. But only by referencing the HC or the legislation, not by making it up.

You are following your interpretation, blocking a junction that is designed not to be blocked as a result of your actions, and getting a fixed penalty for your efforts.

I believe MUST NOT applies throughout Rule 174, and have given an easy example of why your interpretation is not well thought through and why I choose an alternative mindset that leaves the junction clear and my hard-earned in the bank.

The legal system seems to back my approach.

[monthou]

PhilAsia said:

You are following your interpretation, blocking a junction that is designed not to be blocked as a result of your actions, and getting a fixed penalty for your efforts.

I'm not. I don't know what you're reading.

PhilAsia said:

I believe MUST NOT applies throughout Rule 174, and have given an easy example of why your interpretation is not well thought through and why I choose an alternative mindset that leaves the junction clear and my hard-earned in the bank.

The legal system seems to back my approach.

Great. Reference it.

[PhilAsia]

monthou said:

PhilAsia said:

You are following your interpretation, blocking a junction that is designed not to be blocked as a result of your actions, and getting a fixed penalty for your efforts.

I'm not. I don't know what you're reading.

PhilAsia said:

I believe MUST NOT applies throughout Rule 174, and have given an easy example of why your interpretation is not well thought through and why I choose an alternative mindset that leaves the junction clear and my hard-earned in the bank.

The legal system seems to back my approach.

Great. Reference it.

MUST NOT and the fact fines are issued when you do.

[monthou]

I give up.

[PhilAsia]

monthou said:

I give up.

So you should.

You are turning right and you see an oncoming truck signaling left. At present the road to the right is clear, but will be blocked once the truck turns and stops in the traffic. You move forward to turn right with your interpretation of the HC, yes? It is CLEAR...

You have now blocked the junction. Well done!

[monthou]

PhilAsia said:

monthou said:

I give up.

So you should.

You are turning right and you see an oncoming truck signaling left. At present the road to the right is clear, but will be blocked once the truck turns and stops in the traffic. You move forward to turn right with your interpretation of the HC, yes? It is CLEAR...

You have now blocked the junction. Well done!

Just to be clear, I've given up because despite repeated requests all you do is keep making up the same stuff.
I can't argue with that.

[PhilAsia]

monthou said:

PhilAsia said:

monthou said:

I give up.

So you should.

You are turning right and you see an oncoming truck signaling left. At present the road to the right is clear, but will be blocked once the truck turns and stops in the traffic. You move forward to turn right with your interpretation of the HC, yes? It is CLEAR...

You have now blocked the junction. Well done!

Just to be clear, I've given up because despite repeated requests all you do is keep making up the same stuff.
I can't argue with that.

I believe it is because the above makes you acutely aware of how ridiculous your approach to keeping a junction, that is designed to be kept clear, is.

But, you do you.

[monthou]

PhilAsia said:

I believe it is because the above makes you acutely aware of how ridiculous your approach to keeping a junction, that is designed to be kept clear, is.

But, you do you.

It's obvious from this thread that what's writtren down and what you believe have only the loosest of relationships.
So by all means believe that if it makes you happy.

[PhilAsia]

yesterjay said:

Phil, are you as cautious in all areas of life?

Do you anticipate rogue badgers so drive at 10mph along blind lanes.

Do you expect all yoghurt to have hairline breaches in the lid seal so never purchase.

Did you expect rain on your wedding day?

When your newborn child first reached up for a reassuring hug to find comfort and solace in the world did you withhold any emotion incase you imparted bias onto their small mind lest they grow up to drive across centrally divided dual lane zebra crossings with a pedestrian already in motion across the oncoming lane, perpetuating the myth that they would need to stop even though the Highway Code defines the crossing as two separate incidences.

Consistency is key...

yesterjay said:

<unsubscribe> to Box Junctions ...PhilAsia what happened?

[Starfighter]

PhilAsia said:

So you should.

You are turning right and you see an oncoming truck signaling left. At present the road to the right is clear, but will be blocked once the truck turns and stops in the traffic. You move forward to turn right with your interpretation of the HC, yes? It is CLEAR...

You have now blocked the junction. Well done!

Those actions would be legal. At the time of entering the exit is clear. Would it be advanced driving - no.

[PhilAsia]

Starfighter said:

PhilAsia said:

So you should.

You are turning right and you see an oncoming truck signaling left. At present the road to the right is clear, but will be blocked once the truck turns and stops in the traffic. You move forward to turn right with your interpretation of the HC, yes? It is CLEAR...

You have now blocked the junction. Well done!

Those actions would be legal. At the time of entering the exit is clear. Would it be advanced driving - no.

Previous posters indicating the penalty/fine for not being able to complete into a "clear" road indicates somewhat differently...

Edited by PhilAsia on Wednesday 21st September 19:48

[PhilAsia]

Not rocket science. If you cannot GUARANTEE to leave the area that is designed to be kept clear, do not go in...

[monthou]

PhilAsia said:

Not rocket science. If you cannot GUARANTEE to leave the area that is designed to be kept clear, do not go in...

PhilAsia in making st up shocker.

[Starfighter]

Then they were wrongly convicted (local authority?). The law is clear. Stopping is a box is not illegal, entering the box with certain conditions being met is illegal. Someone else filling you space to exit once you are in the box does not make you guilty of an offence.

The law says said:

(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—
(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and

(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn

[PhilAsia]

Starfighter said:

Then they were wrongly convicted (local authority?). The law is clear. Stopping is a box is not illegal, entering the box with certain conditions being met is illegal. Someone else filling you space to exit once you are in the box does not make you guilty of an offence.

The law says said:

(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—
(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and

(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn

Exactly my point. The vehicle is "...only prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn....". A blocked exit is preventing completion.

Edited by PhilAsia on Wednesday 21st September 20:13

[Starfighter]

The offence is committed at the point of entry to the box. Once the vehicle has lawfully entered then a change of circumstances after entering the box (snigger goes here) cannot retrospectively make the lawful entry now unlawful.