Teaching youngsters to drive and associated hazards.
Discussion
BliarOut said:
ipsg.glf said:
EmmaP said:
I think that most people underestimate the capacity of the brain to absorb information.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
EmmaP
I agree 100% with every word except that he should not try to overload the young lad. If he does too much advanced stuff too early, the youngster might get confused. I'd hate to see him fail his DSA test because on an overtake he went out for a look first.
Conversely I'd hate to see him crash because he didn't know how to overtake safely. Perhaps a bit more background would help.
Friend from his school last year. Dead. His cousin went in a dyke with three friends in the car. Fortunately the crash took out the windows and they all got out alive from a submerged car but the outcome could have been very different.
I would feel irresponsible if I didn't take him out to face the sort of roads he's likely to travel on his own when he actually passes his test and do my best to equip him to spot the hazards and deal with them safely. Passing the test doesn't do that.
For the last time: You need to get him through his DSA test first. Giving him extra tools at a time when his head is probably mushed anyway will not help him.
If you want to be really strcit about it, tell him that he cannot go out solo until he has passed his IAM.
I agree 100% with what you are trying to do, I really do. BUT there is no point teaching him advanced skills at this point until he has passed his DSA test.
When I did my IAM in 1997 I had been driving for 9 years. I had a daily commute of 75 miles each way. I found that I was knackered when I got to work by trying to drive to Roadcraft. There was no chance I had the energy for the drive home. And that was me with driving for 9 years.
I know you are only seeking to protect him but you really need to back off just until he gets the DSA test pass. Again, all IMHO.
I'm not trying to get him driving to IAM standards (this thread started out in General Gassing) I'm trying to teach him sufficient skills so that he can stay alive. Giving a young man a car and telling him he can drive won't teach him that he's full of vulnerabilities or that he will make mistakes.
Roads where he lives can run dead straight alongside dykes for miles and then suddenly turn without warning. Where there are trees the road can undulate violently and literally push a car into the water if you're not prepared for it. They don't teach that on the test, they teach how to drive at the speed limit and basic machine control. Remember the driver I mentioned, he had passed his test but no-one took him out on the back roads before.
If what I teach him slows him down and it means he's more experienced when he is eventually allowed out on his own is that really a bad thing? Surely one of the things we all believe here on PH is better training, not rigid compliance with the rules?
PS. I passed my advanced motorcycling way back in 1982
Roads where he lives can run dead straight alongside dykes for miles and then suddenly turn without warning. Where there are trees the road can undulate violently and literally push a car into the water if you're not prepared for it. They don't teach that on the test, they teach how to drive at the speed limit and basic machine control. Remember the driver I mentioned, he had passed his test but no-one took him out on the back roads before.
If what I teach him slows him down and it means he's more experienced when he is eventually allowed out on his own is that really a bad thing? Surely one of the things we all believe here on PH is better training, not rigid compliance with the rules?
PS. I passed my advanced motorcycling way back in 1982
All of it, a couple of times.
Not crashing into dykes is more important than passing the test IMO. If it takes him longer to pass (which I doubt) so what?
You go in a dyke you have 30 seconds to evacuate the car in potentially freezing water however smashed up you are. No if's no but's and no waiting for the fire brigade to extricate you. 30 seconds. Failure to follow this simple rule and it's game over and no second chances.
What if he doesn't live long enough to take the IAM instruction? What then?
Not crashing into dykes is more important than passing the test IMO. If it takes him longer to pass (which I doubt) so what?
You go in a dyke you have 30 seconds to evacuate the car in potentially freezing water however smashed up you are. No if's no but's and no waiting for the fire brigade to extricate you. 30 seconds. Failure to follow this simple rule and it's game over and no second chances.
What if he doesn't live long enough to take the IAM instruction? What then?
Meanwhile in the real world..... He's worked hard and saved to buy a car and pay for his lessons. When he's passed his test he will (rightly) be free to gain his independence. He's on the cusp of becoming a man and could bear arms for his country. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that he can't go out on his own once he's passed his test and I would expect a "you can
right off" if it was even suggested. So, do you have any tips on areas that are weak on the DSA stuff or not?
Bliarout,
What you're trying to do is admirable. But mastering any new driving skill carries its own risks.
And the skills that you are trying to impart are likely to be, as you have observed at first hand, beyond your pupil at the moment.
Rather than teach extreme positioning or overtaking, would it be more helpful to concentrate on the life-saving skills that you will keep the young man on the road, shiny side up? Skills such as:
- Being able to stop the car, on your own side of the road, in the distance that you can see to be clear and reasonably expect to remain clear.
- Searching for observational clues. Simple ones like bend signs, "slow" on the road and chevrons. Then more esoteric ones like tree lines, ditch lines, telegraph poles, visible signs for opposing traffic that suggest the road must bend, skid marks...
Only when these foundation skills are mastered can more advanced skills be safely assimilated. After all, you wouldn't teach heel and toe gearchanging to somebody who had to look to find the gearstick, would you?
WilliBetz
What you're trying to do is admirable. But mastering any new driving skill carries its own risks.
And the skills that you are trying to impart are likely to be, as you have observed at first hand, beyond your pupil at the moment.
Rather than teach extreme positioning or overtaking, would it be more helpful to concentrate on the life-saving skills that you will keep the young man on the road, shiny side up? Skills such as:
- Being able to stop the car, on your own side of the road, in the distance that you can see to be clear and reasonably expect to remain clear.
- Searching for observational clues. Simple ones like bend signs, "slow" on the road and chevrons. Then more esoteric ones like tree lines, ditch lines, telegraph poles, visible signs for opposing traffic that suggest the road must bend, skid marks...
Only when these foundation skills are mastered can more advanced skills be safely assimilated. After all, you wouldn't teach heel and toe gearchanging to somebody who had to look to find the gearstick, would you?
WilliBetz
[quote=BliarOut
So, do you have any tips on areas that are weak on the DSA stuff or not?[/quote]
No not really! Talking frankly, I think your approach is mis-construed (polite for wrong).
Your efforts are best spent in managing the situation, not in assuming that someone who has passed their test will crash! You need to inspire him to aspire to good driving, to aspire to improve, you need to warn him of the dangers, talk to him a lot, make sure he gets to know all these 'unknown' roads, show your confidence in him, make him want to make you proud and not let you down, get him engaged in an improvement programme.
Is that all bollox? Maybe, but maybe not.
Graham
So, do you have any tips on areas that are weak on the DSA stuff or not?[/quote]
No not really! Talking frankly, I think your approach is mis-construed (polite for wrong).
Your efforts are best spent in managing the situation, not in assuming that someone who has passed their test will crash! You need to inspire him to aspire to good driving, to aspire to improve, you need to warn him of the dangers, talk to him a lot, make sure he gets to know all these 'unknown' roads, show your confidence in him, make him want to make you proud and not let you down, get him engaged in an improvement programme.
Is that all bollox? Maybe, but maybe not.
Graham
gridgway said:
You need to inspire him to aspire to good driving, to aspire to improve, you need to warn him of the dangers, talk to him a lot, make sure he gets to know all these 'unknown' roads, show your confidence in him, make him want to make you proud and not let you down, get him engaged in an improvement programme.
Top advice, reinforcing the power of positive thought. If you tell someone that they are going to fail/make a mistake they most certainly will as their brain will tell them that. I'd be suprised if Bliarout was doing this though.
EmmaP said:
gridgway said:
You need to inspire him to aspire to good driving, to aspire to improve, you need to warn him of the dangers, talk to him a lot, make sure he gets to know all these 'unknown' roads, show your confidence in him, make him want to make you proud and not let you down, get him engaged in an improvement programme.
Top advice, reinforcing the power of positive thought. If you tell someone that they are going to fail/make a mistake they most certainly will as their brain will tell them that. I'd be suprised if Bliarout was doing this though.
Thanks again Emma...
Sometimes I despair with the internet..... "Meeeh, you don't want to do it like that, you want to do it like this"[/HarryEnfield]
So at what point exactly after his test does his brain metamorphose and he suddenly does posses this mysterious talent of understanding basic concepts?
Tight on lefts, wide on rights, watch the point where the road meets and see if it's approaching or disappearing.
Do you know what, it took me about half an hour to grasp it aged seventeen...
gridgway said:
BliarOut said:
Tight on lefts, wide on rights, watch the point where the road meets and see if it's approaching or disappearing.
Do you know what, it took me about half an hour to grasp it aged seventeen...
Do you know what, it took me about half an hour to grasp it aged seventeen...
Don't you mean wide on lefts and tight on rights?
Graham
Doh, I was annoyed
BliarOut said:
I'm not trying to get him driving to IAM standards (this thread started out in General Gassing) I'm trying to teach him sufficient skills so that he can stay alive.
.....
PS. I passed my advanced motorcycling way back in 1982
.....
PS. I passed my advanced motorcycling way back in 1982
I've only just seen this thread, but I've read through it.
You're trying to do exactly what I (started off) trying to do when my (then) teenage daughters learned to drive. At the risk of being sexist, I found it doubly difficult with the girls because they've got no concept of the mechanical things that are going on.
I spoke to their instructor about it - he teaches pretty well all the local kids and has been very good a calming most of the local boys. His view was pretty similar to other posters on here - I (and you) are trying to put 20+ yrs of advanced driving experience into the kids heads when they still haven't mastered 'basic' driving.
I consider myself to be a natural driver - I passed my test straight off with only a few lessons, and I passed my Advanced driving test at Gold standard after a couple of hours practice (we were made to do it for work - most people failed, a few got through at lower levels). You & I drive at a completely different standard to a teenager and it's really tough to bring yourself back to the kids level of understanding so that they can absorb what you're telling them.
Edited by deva link on Thursday 1st February 15:12
BliarOut said:
EmmaP said:
gridgway said:
You need to inspire him to aspire to good driving, to aspire to improve, you need to warn him of the dangers, talk to him a lot, make sure he gets to know all these 'unknown' roads, show your confidence in him, make him want to make you proud and not let you down, get him engaged in an improvement programme.
Top advice, reinforcing the power of positive thought. If you tell someone that they are going to fail/make a mistake they most certainly will as their brain will tell them that. I'd be suprised if Bliarout was doing this though.
Thanks again Emma...
Sometimes I despair with the internet..... "Meeeh, you don't want to do it like that, you want to do it like this"[/HarryEnfield]
So at what point exactly after his test does his brain metamorphose and he suddenly does posses this mysterious talent of understanding basic concepts?
Tight on lefts, wide on rights, watch the point where the road meets and see if it's approaching or disappearing.
Do you know what, it took me about half an hour to grasp it aged seventeen...
Doh! Sorry, just realised. Trolling. Very good. Whoops, there goes another one....
www.spaldingtoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=829&ArticleID=2014652
www.spaldingtoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=829&ArticleID=2014652
BliarOut said:
I'm not trying to get him driving to IAM standards (this thread started out in General Gassing) I'm trying to teach him sufficient skills so that he can stay alive. Giving a young man a car and telling him he can drive won't teach him that he's full of vulnerabilities or that he will make mistakes.
Roads where he lives can run dead straight alongside dykes for miles and then suddenly turn without warning. Where there are trees the road can undulate violently and literally push a car into the water if you're not prepared for it. They don't teach that on the test, they teach how to drive at the speed limit and basic machine control. Remember the driver I mentioned, he had passed his test but no-one took him out on the back roads before.
If what I teach him slows him down and it means he's more experienced when he is eventually allowed out on his own is that really a bad thing? Surely one of the things we all believe here on PH is better training, not rigid compliance with the rules?
PS. I passed my advanced motorcycling way back in 1982
Roads where he lives can run dead straight alongside dykes for miles and then suddenly turn without warning. Where there are trees the road can undulate violently and literally push a car into the water if you're not prepared for it. They don't teach that on the test, they teach how to drive at the speed limit and basic machine control. Remember the driver I mentioned, he had passed his test but no-one took him out on the back roads before.
If what I teach him slows him down and it means he's more experienced when he is eventually allowed out on his own is that really a bad thing? Surely one of the things we all believe here on PH is better training, not rigid compliance with the rules?
PS. I passed my advanced motorcycling way back in 1982
I agree with your aims. I used to be an ADI before I moved into H&S and Training. One of the most important aspects of driving is attitude. It should be of equal importance as knowledge of the Highway Code etc. I always taught my pupils "advanced" principles right from the begining. In particular, observations skills were developed as was mechanical sympathy, high speed roads, country roads, emergency stops from higher than 20mph. OK, it took some of them a bit longer than it would have if they had just gone for the shortest course, but a few commneted on how much better they felt able to deal with real world driving than may of their peers. If a young driver develops these skills in parallel to the skills required for the DSA test, then they should pass the test and be beter prepared for the real world.
I'd also recommend a small engined, narrow tyred car as a first car. Low levels of grip at low speeds will make a novice appreciate what is happening at far lower levels than a wide tyred powerful motor.
Have a look at the book Mind Driving It gives a really good insight to how the mind takes in information for new and advanced drivers.
You do not need, nor want to prepare them to IAM/ROSPA test level, but make them appreciate different conditions, hazards and discipline. When I was 17, I had already spent about 5-6 years driving cars and trucks around the yard and workshop at the haulage depot, I could reverse artics better than many of the drivers, and was happy to move almost anything in the yard, from forklifts to artics. However, I did not apply for my test until I had about 6 months experience driving on the road. I drove whenever I got the opportunity, with a few different "instructors" and in a variety of cars (mostly a Vauxhall Magnum Estate which tended to be loaded with a mechanics tool chest, jumped out of 1st gear ocassionally, ran on 3 cylinders at times, had crap rear brakes and was the first thing I ever took over 100mph). I passed first time, driving my Mum's Ford Cortina Mk4, in which I had spent most of our two-week holiday in Yorkshire driving. I also recall being terrified to overtake a JCB later on that afternoon on my first solo trip to pick my Mum up from work. I think even then I had a fairly good attitude to driving and realised I had a lot of experience to gain.
Looking at this from a professional point of view. [/truth often hurts]
If his control was good he wouldn't need your help to sort things out. His control is actually most likely only as good as the average driver!
Why does it go from 'we' to 'he'? Both you and he should be reading the road and the responsible driver not the pupil should shoulder the blame when things go wrong. It seems you were encouraging him to go faster than he was capable of, were aware he was going to lose control at some point and left it too late to give him verbal instruction to help. A very common untrained instructor error. Hopefully though it will have taught him to drive within his own limits and realise that peer pressure is one of the main causes of accidents.
Had he ever come close to going off the road before your instruction? Maybe his planning wasn't what it could be but probably what his instructor taught him was to drive well within his limits. A good instructor would make a pupil aware that although what the pupil wants is to pass the test, what he needs is to learn how to drive well. Due to the test marking system even a clean sheet does not mean a driver is of a high standard, just that their standard never dropped below the bare minimum.
So to finally answer you question. The main area overlooked is enough quality professional tuition. Most people want the cheapest deal when buying driver training but wouldn't dream of buying the cheapest car, tyres, stereo etc. etc. Which will make you the better driver after the event, a fast car or a good coach? If the training from scratch to test standard is under £1000 walk away and look for someone better. (That works out at less than £2 a month if he drives safely to age seventy. His mate's probably worked out at £100 per month or more)
My qualifications to have such an opinion. I'm an instructor, I used to teach at Goodwood both on the circuit and skid pan, I've been a race car engineer, I'm a national rally winner, intend to present a paper at an International Driver Training conference later this year and I've been hired to run the Mercedes Benz world Young driver training programme. (I'm the tall one) http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/conte
Hope this helps. If you or others want help improving your teaching or training your girlfriend's son pm me.
BliarOut said:
His car control is very good
If his control was good he wouldn't need your help to sort things out. His control is actually most likely only as good as the average driver!
BliarOut said:
We were on roads I had never travelled before on purpose so he had to "read" the road. Before too long the inevitable happened, he got it woefully wrong on the approach to a tight bend and didn't scrub off enough speed.
Why does it go from 'we' to 'he'? Both you and he should be reading the road and the responsible driver not the pupil should shoulder the blame when things go wrong. It seems you were encouraging him to go faster than he was capable of, were aware he was going to lose control at some point and left it too late to give him verbal instruction to help. A very common untrained instructor error. Hopefully though it will have taught him to drive within his own limits and realise that peer pressure is one of the main causes of accidents.
BliarOut said:
What shocked me is how close he is to test standard yet how little he actually has been taught about reading the road. That's not criticising the instructor whose job it is to get him through the test more realising why so many new drivers end up going off the road.
Had he ever come close to going off the road before your instruction? Maybe his planning wasn't what it could be but probably what his instructor taught him was to drive well within his limits. A good instructor would make a pupil aware that although what the pupil wants is to pass the test, what he needs is to learn how to drive well. Due to the test marking system even a clean sheet does not mean a driver is of a high standard, just that their standard never dropped below the bare minimum.
BliarOut said:
Any other areas that are often overlooked when youngsters are learning? I want to make the most of the time we can mould/improve his driving before he's unleashed on the world.
So to finally answer you question. The main area overlooked is enough quality professional tuition. Most people want the cheapest deal when buying driver training but wouldn't dream of buying the cheapest car, tyres, stereo etc. etc. Which will make you the better driver after the event, a fast car or a good coach? If the training from scratch to test standard is under £1000 walk away and look for someone better. (That works out at less than £2 a month if he drives safely to age seventy. His mate's probably worked out at £100 per month or more)
My qualifications to have such an opinion. I'm an instructor, I used to teach at Goodwood both on the circuit and skid pan, I've been a race car engineer, I'm a national rally winner, intend to present a paper at an International Driver Training conference later this year and I've been hired to run the Mercedes Benz world Young driver training programme. (I'm the tall one) http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/conte
Hope this helps. If you or others want help improving your teaching or training your girlfriend's son pm me.
martin a said:
Stuff
Some days the internet really gets on my tits.
So all of a sudden a written description of events makes everyone and his dog an expert does it? FFS There are only three people who actually know what happened.
The post is to hilight how piss poor the DSA stuff is and how ill equipped it leaves teenagers on the sort of roads they encounter in Lincolnshire, or anywhere else for that matter.
Oh, and for the record I've had Justin Wilson helping me with the steering on the track well over the ton. That's why an experienced person is there, to help.
If you feel the need to be critical then you have failed to grasp the reason for the post.
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