Why is it wrong to brake and down-change simultaneously?
Discussion
vonhosen said:
Advanced driving isn't restricted to IAM/RoADA though, particularly if we use your earlier suggestion of 'beyond the DSA basic test' as a marker for it.
Von please tell me where I can get better training that involves methods other than those taught in Roadcraft. I'm a nut for getting qualies and if there is better I will sign up right now.Enlighten me as to what you're saying here, is the IAM/RoADAR useless or what? You're so vague I can't make head nor tail of what you are saying most of the time, you say the IAM is old hat and that new ideas are needed so offer me some?
Edited to add, all I can think of is doing the IAM masters which I was planning for this year, I'm somewhat limited geographically, living as I do near Lands End! You knew that though right?
Edited by 25NAD90TUL on Sunday 5th January 17:56
25NAD90TUL said:
Separation is a hard thing to get down, that is why it's such a contentious issue. It takes practise, a lot of it.
People say here that the method is old and stagnant but I have ten copies of Roadcraft from the first to the latest and it has been revised many times, it evolves.
It remains as a tenet that you are judged against with some organisations though & some will consider that an unnecessary restriction.People say here that the method is old and stagnant but I have ten copies of Roadcraft from the first to the latest and it has been revised many times, it evolves.
25NAD90TUL said:
Why is it so wrong of me to attempt to answer the OP's question with the Roadcraft point of view?
It isn't, but it's that, one view espoused by a particular couple of organisations.The objection is more about the opposite, that it's wrong to offer an answer that doesn't adhere to the Roadcraft system.
25NAD90TUL said:
Why are people so anti the techniques taught? When a large percentage are IAM observers who teach this on a regular basis?
It's not that they are anti separation, it's that they hold different beliefs about it's value/necessity.25NAD90TUL said:
vonhosen said:
Advanced driving isn't restricted to IAM/RoADA though, particularly if we use your earlier suggestion of 'beyond the DSA basic test' as a marker for it.
Von please tell me where I can get better training that involves methods other than those taught in Roadcraft. I'm a nut for getting qualies and if there is better I will sign up right now.25NAD90TUL said:
Enlighten me as to what you're saying here, is the IAM/RoADAR useless or what? You're so vague I can't make head nor tail of what you are saying most of the time, you say the IAM is old hat and that new ideas are needed so offer me some?
'For me' the IAM doesn't focus on the development of what I believe to be the priorities, it is delivered in a way that doesn't support the development of those priorities & is unnecessarily restrictive in it's practices. It is too focused on the process (how it is achieved) rather than what is achieved (outcome).I believe those in it are well intentioned, it is a charity & mostly staffed by volunteers, but it's mindset is too fixed. You say it has evolved but not at the pace or degree of other considerations around it, such as educational/psychological understanding.
p1esk said:
Oh aye: another troublemaker! 
My last comment apropos yourself doesn't mean I assume you are not a great driver, with your wealth of experience and high mileage (no pun intended) I'm sure you are but I don't know how you can debate the finer points of the system if you haven't got it down to the letter that's all.25NAD90TUL said:
vonhosen said:
It's not that they are anti separation, it's that they hold different beliefs about it's value/necessity.
Hang on Von, I thought Roadcraft was the Police manual, not the IAM/RoADAR?Change isn't just needed in the IAM/RoADA IMHO.
vonhosen said:
'For me' the IAM doesn't focus on the development of what I believe to be the priorities, it is delivered in a way that doesn't support the development of those priorities & is unnecessarily restrictive in it's practices. It is too focused on the process (how it is achieved) rather than what is achieved (outcome).
I believe those in it are well intentioned, it is a charity & mostly staffed by volunteers, but it's mindset is too fixed. You say it has evolved but not at the pace or degree of other considerations around it, such as educational/psychological understanding.
You say the mindset is too fixed yet one of my issues with IAM was that the observers had very different ideas than the examiners, each observer has their pet techniques and I found a lack of standardisation which was a problem to me.I believe those in it are well intentioned, it is a charity & mostly staffed by volunteers, but it's mindset is too fixed. You say it has evolved but not at the pace or degree of other considerations around it, such as educational/psychological understanding.
My budget? The skies the limit.
What are my aims? To be the best driver I can be. Speed doesn't particularly interest me at all. I just collect accolades. My driving is pretty good now but I'd like to go 'Very Advanced' if possible and if there is an alternative to Roadcraft I'm interested. Why is it good enough for the Police? Why haven't they changed since the Lord C days I believe the 1930s?
25NAD90TUL said:
as the foot comes off the brake I slip neutral, if the speed is right no need for the clutch, throttle to 2000rpm and slip into 2nd,
With respect a technique that will only work in pretty specific vehicles, and arguably, harder to master than hnt, does not make a good case for separation working everywhere. I have done clutchless changes in cars, though I would probably just brake with my left foot if I was going to use it to avoid hnt.
25NAD90TUL said:
vonhosen said:
'For me' the IAM doesn't focus on the development of what I believe to be the priorities, it is delivered in a way that doesn't support the development of those priorities & is unnecessarily restrictive in it's practices. It is too focused on the process (how it is achieved) rather than what is achieved (outcome).
I believe those in it are well intentioned, it is a charity & mostly staffed by volunteers, but it's mindset is too fixed. You say it has evolved but not at the pace or degree of other considerations around it, such as educational/psychological understanding.
You say the mindset is too fixed yet one of my issues with IAM was that the observers had very different ideas than the examiners, each observer has their pet techniques and I found a lack of standardisation which was a problem to me.I believe those in it are well intentioned, it is a charity & mostly staffed by volunteers, but it's mindset is too fixed. You say it has evolved but not at the pace or degree of other considerations around it, such as educational/psychological understanding.
25NAD90TUL said:
My budget? The skies the limit.
What are my aims? To be the best driver I can be. Speed doesn't particularly interest me at all. I just collect accolades. My driving is pretty good now but I'd like to go 'Very Advanced' if possible and if there is an alternative to Roadcraft I'm interested. Why is it good enough for the Police? Why haven't they changed since the Lord C days I believe the 1930s?
Where do you feel/think you're driving is lacking?What are my aims? To be the best driver I can be. Speed doesn't particularly interest me at all. I just collect accolades. My driving is pretty good now but I'd like to go 'Very Advanced' if possible and if there is an alternative to Roadcraft I'm interested. Why is it good enough for the Police? Why haven't they changed since the Lord C days I believe the 1930s?
If you could change three things, what would they be & why?
How important is the change for you?
What are you willing to sacrifice for them?
I'd suggest finding a good coach for the areas you wish to develop.
They have changed since Lord C days & at times not for the better IMHO.
There is a variety of views within Police training circles & the methodology utilised varies at different schools, some having a very 'traditional' style, some a more 'progressive' style of learning.
Quoting now from a RoSPA manual of Advanced Driving Gordon Cole...
''Braking and changing down at the same time is a control fault. All unwanted road speed should be lost by proper use of the footbrake or deceleration, then the appropriate gear selected. A gear change should not be made in the initial stages of braking. The 'Heel and Toe' method when braking and changing gear at the same time is not good driving while on the public highway and can be dangerous. Therefore it should not be done''
A Police driving instructor told me the same about H&T when I was a learner and I'll take that advice to the grave with me, although I can do it no problem, in fact he mentioned it because I was using the technique!
So we're basically saying here that the perceived wisdom handed down to Moses direct from God is no good, yet we offer no alternative advice? This 'new methodology we should be looking towards implementing is only noticeable by it's absence, how can I adapt to the new methods if no-one can tell me what they are? All I get here is that separation is unnecessary yet when I look at my literature on the subject every manual says more or less what is quoted above. What conclusions am I meant to arrive at by this?
''Braking and changing down at the same time is a control fault. All unwanted road speed should be lost by proper use of the footbrake or deceleration, then the appropriate gear selected. A gear change should not be made in the initial stages of braking. The 'Heel and Toe' method when braking and changing gear at the same time is not good driving while on the public highway and can be dangerous. Therefore it should not be done''
A Police driving instructor told me the same about H&T when I was a learner and I'll take that advice to the grave with me, although I can do it no problem, in fact he mentioned it because I was using the technique!
So we're basically saying here that the perceived wisdom handed down to Moses direct from God is no good, yet we offer no alternative advice? This 'new methodology we should be looking towards implementing is only noticeable by it's absence, how can I adapt to the new methods if no-one can tell me what they are? All I get here is that separation is unnecessary yet when I look at my literature on the subject every manual says more or less what is quoted above. What conclusions am I meant to arrive at by this?
vonhosen said:
It was initially, but it has long since been just that. It isn't owned by the Police & is sold/used far more widely.
Change isn't just needed in the IAM/RoADA IMHO.
John Miles more or less said the same in his book, he wanted H&T included in the system, he hasn't got his wish yet 40 years later.Change isn't just needed in the IAM/RoADA IMHO.
Toltec said:
With respect a technique that will only work in pretty specific vehicles, and arguably, harder to master than hnt, does not make a good case for separation working everywhere.
I have done clutchless changes in cars, though I would probably just brake with my left foot if I was going to use it to avoid hnt.
Left foot braking eh? Nice!I have done clutchless changes in cars, though I would probably just brake with my left foot if I was going to use it to avoid hnt.
Toltec said:
With respect a technique that will only work in pretty specific vehicles, and arguably, harder to master than hnt, does not make a good case for separation working everywhere.
I have done clutchless changes in cars, though I would probably just brake with my left foot if I was going to use it to avoid hnt.
No I would do exactly the same in my wifes VW fox although the rpm/roadspeed match would be different, I'll try it when these storms subside and get back to you on it.I have done clutchless changes in cars, though I would probably just brake with my left foot if I was going to use it to avoid hnt.
25NAD90TUL said:
Quoting now from a RoSPA manual of Advanced Driving Gordon Cole...
''Braking and changing down at the same time is a control fault. All unwanted road speed should be lost by proper use of the footbrake or deceleration, then the appropriate gear selected. A gear change should not be made in the initial stages of braking. The 'Heel and Toe' method when braking and changing gear at the same time is not good driving while on the public highway and can be dangerous. Therefore it should not be done''
A Police driving instructor told me the same about H&T when I was a learner and I'll take that advice to the grave with me, although I can do it no problem, in fact he mentioned it because I was using the technique!
So we're basically saying here that the perceived wisdom handed down to Moses direct from God is no good, yet we offer no alternative advice? This 'new methodology we should be looking towards implementing is only noticeable by it's absence, how can I adapt to the new methods if no-one can tell me what they are? All I get here is that separation is unnecessary yet when I look at my literature on the subject every manual says more or less what is quoted above. What conclusions am I meant to arrive at by this?
The methodology I'm talking about lays in the questions I asked you earlier, what you'd change about your driving & why?''Braking and changing down at the same time is a control fault. All unwanted road speed should be lost by proper use of the footbrake or deceleration, then the appropriate gear selected. A gear change should not be made in the initial stages of braking. The 'Heel and Toe' method when braking and changing gear at the same time is not good driving while on the public highway and can be dangerous. Therefore it should not be done''
A Police driving instructor told me the same about H&T when I was a learner and I'll take that advice to the grave with me, although I can do it no problem, in fact he mentioned it because I was using the technique!
So we're basically saying here that the perceived wisdom handed down to Moses direct from God is no good, yet we offer no alternative advice? This 'new methodology we should be looking towards implementing is only noticeable by it's absence, how can I adapt to the new methods if no-one can tell me what they are? All I get here is that separation is unnecessary yet when I look at my literature on the subject every manual says more or less what is quoted above. What conclusions am I meant to arrive at by this?
Why are you not achieving what you want to achieve & what possible changes could be made to increase your performance levels in these areas? The thing is it's about dealing with what you see as your inefficiencies so that you increase your performance level & just as the problems are individual to you, so should the solution be. Your problem, your solution. It's about what produces the best results for you by considering all the potential options, not restricting yourself to one way of doing it.
vonhosen said:
Where do you feel/think you're driving is lacking?
If you could change three things, what would they be & why?
How important is the change for you?
What are you willing to sacrifice for them?
1) I don't feel it is lacking in any specific area.If you could change three things, what would they be & why?
How important is the change for you?
What are you willing to sacrifice for them?
2) I'd have to see better before formulating an opinion on this.
3) Not at all, I'm just responding to you, I'm happy with 'the system' it's just that you reckon there's better methods.
4) Money and my current driving style.
Coaching is difficult for me geographically. Ideally I'd like to go back with my original instructor, Anthony Hancock, an ex class 1 Police who had instructed Police here and in America, but so far away now, even if he's still living, but again that would be along Roadcraft lines, tbh the only driver I've been with that I considered to be an ace, I don't think I'd be far off his standard nowadays. Thing is Von I'm not interested in racing techniques, been there done that and limit handling etc not much use when nose to tail on the A30. I could be faster, in fact I have failed an IAM test for 'insufficient progress' but then I did have a propshaft rubber coupling fail on me on test! 'Continuous' Commentary was a 1, use of gearbox a 1...Our examiner has never issued a first, although my chief observer marked my pre-test as a first, again he had different ideas than the examiner, in Bristol I'd have got a first no problem.
Dunno about all this talk Von, I could talk to you all day, but all I tried to do was answer the original question...'Why is it wrong in the IAM to brake and change simultaneously' I've answered as per my training and manuals, yet seems I have it all wrong.
I'm thinking now that the whole separation thing isn't about being a better method, I think it's about discipline in the drive, I think it breeds thought, care, forward planning and a pride in getting it right. Anyone who doesn't want to do it don't. I however will continue to do it!
I'll go to other areas of PH now, I want to talk about MY pet subjects, Snow, Ice, Traction, Chains, Winter tyres, 4x4s and mechanics, not a lot of that in AD section.
Thanks to everyone though, I don't post often but I read often and comprehensively here.
Best wishes for 2014 whatever you're doing/planning!
I'll go to other areas of PH now, I want to talk about MY pet subjects, Snow, Ice, Traction, Chains, Winter tyres, 4x4s and mechanics, not a lot of that in AD section.
Thanks to everyone though, I don't post often but I read often and comprehensively here.
Best wishes for 2014 whatever you're doing/planning!
25NAD90TUL said:
Dunno about all this talk Von, I could talk to you all day, but all I tried to do was answer the original question...'Why is it wrong in the IAM to brake and change simultaneously' I've answered as per my training and manuals, yet seems I have it all wrong.
It's not wrong but that's your reasons & others will have their reasons for not doing it (& that's not wrong either).It's one way of doing it, but that's all it is.
What benefit does separating give you, that can't be achieved in any other way?
Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 5th January 19:48
vonhosen said:
It's not wrong but that's your reasons & others will have their reasons for not doing it (& that's not wrong either).
It's one way of doing it, but that's all it is.
What benefit does separating give you, that can't be achieved in any other way?
Apart from the obvious?...I pass my AD tests! It's one way of doing it, but that's all it is.
What benefit does separating give you, that can't be achieved in any other way?
Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 5th January 19:48
Only benefit I can think of is that it lets me know I'm planning ahead and concentrating.
I didn't write Roadcraft, I don't know why it's in there, only that it is. I'm assuming it's connected to fumbling with the gear stick while braking and possibly steering and taking observation. Each piece of the system is separated out I'm assuming. All I do know is that now to overlap seems incredibly amateurish and fussy, when I watch other people overlap it always seems as if the gearchange is hurried and sloppy and late. When I was an associate I had the same argument as others offer me here, separating seemed so alien and I didn't understand the point and the only answer I got was more or less that it was what was required no reason given why. Perhaps Von you could inform me as to why it was included originally? Like double-declutching, supposedly outdated since the arrival of synchromesh...In actual fact even on a modern synchromesh trans if you double-declutch as you go down into second or first it's more sympathetic, the synchros will last longer! What are your views on overlapping steering with braking?
You still didn't tell me what organisations or tests recommend overlapping, for example where would you be marked down for using the separation technique?
Furthermore, why is separation bad?
Are the Police not the high standard of driving that I have been led to believe? And if not why not? Surely they should be shaken up if their methods are outdated.
Who, aside from the Police should I be looking to for this better method? What driving manual should I be reading instead of Roadcraft?
So many questions, so few answers, you're meant to be the expert here not me. Let your expertise flow and enlighten one who wishes to be enlightened.
25NAD90TUL said:
Toltec said:
With respect a technique that will only work in pretty specific vehicles, and arguably, harder to master than hnt, does not make a good case for separation working everywhere.
I have done clutchless changes in cars, though I would probably just brake with my left foot if I was going to use it to avoid hnt.
No I would do exactly the same in my wifes VW fox although the rpm/roadspeed match would be different, I'll try it when these storms subside and get back to you on it.I have done clutchless changes in cars, though I would probably just brake with my left foot if I was going to use it to avoid hnt.
Thanks for the idea though.
25NAD90TUL said:
Left foot braking eh? Nice!
Only in the sense of being able to brake controllably with my left foot, easy if you have spent much time karting, not in the sense of a gravel rally stage.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff