Over-shoulder checks on motorways
Discussion
Keeping awareness up means that you normally know who is where and what they're doing. This is how I survive when motor racing, I don't look in my mirrors all the time, but I keep a record of who's behind me and work out when they'll be right up my chuff. However, I always do a shoulder check on motorways, both my cars have significant blindspots and the Elise is particularly bad due to the mid engined layout. Obviously if the guy in front of you brakes whilst you're checking your shoulder it can all end in tears (I came off my push bike when I was a student when my mate stopped as I was checking my shoulder!), but I think on balance it's better to avoid lane change accidents 
BertBert said:
RobM77 said:
Obviously if the guy in front of you brakes whilst you're checking your shoulder it can all end in tears
Clearly you'd have this as part of your plan...leave more room from the guy in front if you are going to be shoulder checking!Bert
To recap on my initial point though, I always do a quick blind spot check before changing lanes. The risk of not doing so is more significant than what might happen up front whilst you're briefly flicking your head to one side.
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 4th August 18:08
I habitually do a shoulder check when changing lanes in a car, in part due to having had it it beaten into me when learning to ride a motorbike.
I was criticised on a recent IAM driving corporate driving assesment for doing just this by my instructor who explained that whilst it's a lifesaver on a bike, it's a life taker in a car due to diverting your attention away from the road in front. Much of the advice and constructive criticism I got that day was great, but I thought this was b
ks - to the point that I kept doing it just to annoy him. I reckon I can check over my shoulder in little more time than it takes me to focus on my rear view mirror and then back ahead.
Is riding into cars in front whilst doing a lifesaver a major cause of accidents for motorcyclists ?
I was criticised on a recent IAM driving corporate driving assesment for doing just this by my instructor who explained that whilst it's a lifesaver on a bike, it's a life taker in a car due to diverting your attention away from the road in front. Much of the advice and constructive criticism I got that day was great, but I thought this was b
ks - to the point that I kept doing it just to annoy him. I reckon I can check over my shoulder in little more time than it takes me to focus on my rear view mirror and then back ahead.Is riding into cars in front whilst doing a lifesaver a major cause of accidents for motorcyclists ?
Seight_Returns said:
I was criticised on a recent IAM driving corporate driving assesment for doing just this by my instructor who explained that whilst it's a lifesaver on a bike, it's a life taker in a car due to diverting your attention away from the road in front.
Errr... what's the difference? how does it take your attention away any more in a car than it does on a bike. The bloke was obviously a pillock. Good on you for sticking to your guns.Seight_Returns said:
I was criticised on a recent IAM driving corporate driving assessment for doing just this by my instructor who explained that whilst it's a lifesaver on a bike, it's a life taker in a car due to diverting your attention away from the road in front.
What an idiot!!! Where does the IAM get these people from?johnao said:
Seight_Returns said:
I was criticised on a recent IAM driving corporate driving assessment for doing just this by my instructor who explained that whilst it's a lifesaver on a bike, it's a life taker in a car due to diverting your attention away from the road in front.
What an idiot!!! Where does the IAM get these people from?The time you are most likely to need an over-shoulder check is when you are approaching a slower vehicle and preparing to overtake it. Another reason why it's important to keep your distance.
Like others here, on occasions when I haven't looked in the past, I've come close to causing an accident. I remember when I was 20 years old, nearly wiping out a biker when moving from lane 2 to 1. I always look now, even if I am convinced there could be no-one there.
Like others here, on occasions when I haven't looked in the past, I've come close to causing an accident. I remember when I was 20 years old, nearly wiping out a biker when moving from lane 2 to 1. I always look now, even if I am convinced there could be no-one there.
That blindspot diagram is typically pessimistic. You would pick up that car in your peripheral vision, particularly as you flick your eyes towards the side-mirror.
And, to be provocative, how would a car or bike be able to enter your "blindspot" unseen ?
I do make over-the-shoulder checks in certain situations - ie where for some reason I know I haven't been able to get enough mirror checks in, because I've had to pay attention to traffic ahead of me, or, as the OP mentioned, merging from a sliproad or tunnel where you physically had no possibility to check before moving, but in general, I already know what's there.
If in doubt, obviously I make a full shoulder check, but the idea that it is always 100% necessary is wrong, in my opinion.
And, to be provocative, how would a car or bike be able to enter your "blindspot" unseen ?
I do make over-the-shoulder checks in certain situations - ie where for some reason I know I haven't been able to get enough mirror checks in, because I've had to pay attention to traffic ahead of me, or, as the OP mentioned, merging from a sliproad or tunnel where you physically had no possibility to check before moving, but in general, I already know what's there.
If in doubt, obviously I make a full shoulder check, but the idea that it is always 100% necessary is wrong, in my opinion.
To rise to the provocation - the motorbike or car obvilously gets into the driver's blind spot unseen through less than perfect observation and awareness of what's happening behind.
Whilst striving to achieve perfect observation and situational awareness is a noble aim - acting on the assumption that you've achieved that level of perfection would be arguably arrogant and foolish, certainly for enthusuastic but less than perfect drivers like me.
I'll admit to having found something I was unawre of in my blind spots on rare but significant occasions too. I'm not proud of it and try to learn from each time it's happened - but it has happened - I'd much prefer to admit to this than to admit to having caused a collision.
Whilst striving to achieve perfect observation and situational awareness is a noble aim - acting on the assumption that you've achieved that level of perfection would be arguably arrogant and foolish, certainly for enthusuastic but less than perfect drivers like me.
I'll admit to having found something I was unawre of in my blind spots on rare but significant occasions too. I'm not proud of it and try to learn from each time it's happened - but it has happened - I'd much prefer to admit to this than to admit to having caused a collision.
Edited by Seight_Returns on Wednesday 5th August 14:40
Sure, but if you know your observation has been slack - say, for example, I'm trundling along said m-way with nose-to-tail traffic, with the same cars passing, then being re-passed, by me, I then have a concrete reason to make an over the shoulder check.
But to say you have to make one "everytime you cross paint" isn't any different to saying you need to indicate everytime, "just in case", which is not in the spirit of advanced driving. IMHO.
But to say you have to make one "everytime you cross paint" isn't any different to saying you need to indicate everytime, "just in case", which is not in the spirit of advanced driving. IMHO.
BOR said:
Sure, but if you know your observation has been slack - say, for example, I'm trundling along said m-way with nose-to-tail traffic, with the same cars passing, then being re-passed, by me, I then have a concrete reason to make an over the shoulder check.
But to say you have to make one "everytime you cross paint" isn't any different to saying you need to indicate everytime, "just in case", which is not in the spirit of advanced driving. IMHO.
I think the arguement that contradicts your point is; we will make mistakes, but rather than weigh up all the variables before performing a potentially life saving shoulder check, it is both quicker and easier simply to do one before pulling out.But to say you have to make one "everytime you cross paint" isn't any different to saying you need to indicate everytime, "just in case", which is not in the spirit of advanced driving. IMHO.
I think it's also worth bearing in mind the numbers in some scenerios however unlikely they seem. A GXR1100 can travel at roughly 180mph, that's 264 feet per second, so in the time it takes between mirror checks for a very very vigilent driver (every 5 seconds, although I suspect it's usually over 10 for most of us) the bike could have travelled from a quarter of a mile away into your blind spot in this time. Effectively he has just performed a dissapearing/reappearing act that will result in his death if you chose to simply rely on your mirrors and "awareness".
My main point remains that it is much easier to turn your head 90degrees "just in case" than it is to calculate the probability of you killing someone.
G_T said:
I think it's also worth bearing in mind the numbers in some scenerios however unlikely they seem. A GXR1100 can travel at roughly 180mph, that's 264 feet per second, so in the time it takes between mirror checks for a very very vigilent driver (every 5 seconds, although I suspect it's usually over 10 for most of us) the bike could have travelled from a quarter of a mile away into your blind spot in this time. Effectively he has just performed a dissapearing/reappearing act that will result in his death if you chose to simply rely on your mirrors and "awareness".
That is a rather unrealistic scenario. Anything travelling at that speed is not going to be in your blind spot when you check it and will only be alongside you for a fraction of a second as it passes. The danger in that scenario is not having missed it in the blind spot but having missed it coming up behind you in the first place and then pulling out in front of it. Different type of danger altogether.Edited by Strangely Brown on Wednesday 5th August 16:03
Strangely Brown said:
G_T said:
I think it's also worth bearing in mind the numbers in some scenerios however unlikely they seem. A GXR1100 can travel at roughly 180mph, that's 264 feet per second, so in the time it takes between mirror checks for a very very vigilent driver (every 5 seconds, although I suspect it's usually over 10 for most of us) the bike could have travelled from a quarter of a mile away into your blind spot in this time. Effectively he has just performed a dissapearing/reappearing act that will result in his death if you chose to simply rely on your mirrors and "awareness".
That is a rather unrealistic scenario. Anything travelling at that speed is not going to be in your blind spot when you check it and will only be alongside you for a fraction of a second as it passes. The danger in that scenario is not having missed it in the blind spot but having missed it coming up behind you in the first place and then pulling out in front of it. Different type of danger altogether.Whilst it is is unlikely, my point was that the rider/driver could slow down for whatever reason and end up in your blindspot (speed camera, cop car in distance etc). So it is possible for a whole range of vehicles travelling at high speed (with the time it takes between mirror checks being 10-15 seconds on average) to accelerate from no-where into your blindspot. That's not even taking into account poor rear visibility.
So the theory of regular mirror checks allowing you to see everything is flawed if you catch my meaning?
ETA: Strangely Brown is a terrific horse by the way!
Edited by G_T on Wednesday 5th August 16:16
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