Model Railway Wanton Vandalism.. :(
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
Reading on up on the reports, the lads themselves do not seem to be the "usual" vandals and layabouts you normally assume do this sort of stuff. I reckon you won't see them in court again for anything similar.
You certainly wouldn’t if they were in the slammer where they belong.zarjaz1991 said:
Eric Mc said:
Reading on up on the reports, the lads themselves do not seem to be the "usual" vandals and layabouts you normally assume do this sort of stuff. I reckon you won't see them in court again for anything similar.
You certainly wouldn’t if they were in the slammer where they belong.Honestly I get that people are outraged by this mindless vandalism but nothing would be served by putting these kids in jail apart from satisfying the desire for retribution of some self appointed avenging angels. The purpose of any punishment should be to make sure that the offender does not re-offend sending these "lads" to an institution full of criminals who have committed far worse crimes is likely to have the opposite effect. If there is good reason to believe that these particular offenders are unlikely to re-offend, that they have expressed true remorse and there is nothing in their profiles to suggest that this is anything other than a one--off no matter how unpleasant we perceive their behaviour then there is no reason to send them to jail. And I say this as someone who builds models as a pastime and as a contributor to the "GoFundMe" appeal.
Rumblestripe said:
zarjaz1991 said:
Eric Mc said:
Reading on up on the reports, the lads themselves do not seem to be the "usual" vandals and layabouts you normally assume do this sort of stuff. I reckon you won't see them in court again for anything similar.
You certainly wouldn’t if they were in the slammer where they belong.Honestly I get that people are outraged by this mindless vandalism but nothing would be served by putting these kids in jail apart from satisfying the desire for retribution of some self appointed avenging angels. The purpose of any punishment should be to make sure that the offender does not re-offend sending these "lads" to an institution full of criminals who have committed far worse crimes is likely to have the opposite effect. If there is good reason to believe that these particular offenders are unlikely to re-offend, that they have expressed true remorse and there is nothing in their profiles to suggest that this is anything other than a one--off no matter how unpleasant we perceive their behaviour then there is no reason to send them to jail. And I say this as someone who builds models as a pastime and as a contributor to the "GoFundMe" appeal.
king things up for everyone else, because none of them ever get punished in a suitable way. They're always promising future members of something or other as an excuse for letting them off pretty much scott-free.To deter them and others, you have to make the punishment severe enough. Why nobody seems to grasp this is beyond me.
JimSuperSix said:
The punishment should also serve to discourage others from doing similar, which this doesn't because it's pathetic. No wonder this country has an entire generation or two of absolute scum fking things up for everyone else, because none of them ever get punished in a suitable way..
king things up for everyone else, because none of them ever get punished in a suitable way..
When I was a kid in the late '60s I was scared of coppers. They seemed like big blokes and had some authority. I remember once at a football game a hot dog man's squeezy mustard bottle fell on the floor so for a laugh I stamped on it, was great fun and the plume of mustard shot about 20 feet across the terraces. Just as quick as I was laughing I felt a solid thwack across the back of head as a copper who happened to be standing there whacked me with his leather gauntlets. Told me to pick it up and go and apologise to the trader! Instant solution, it hurt and I was embarrassed in front of my mates. These days the scum would threaten to sue the copper for assault or some such nonsense! 
RichB said:
When I was a kid in the late '60s I was scared of coppers. They seemed like big blokes and had some authority. I remember once at a football game a hot dog man's squeezy mustard bottle fell on the floor so for a laugh I stamped on it, was great fun and the plume of mustard shot about 20 feet across the terraces. Just as quick as I was laughing I felt a solid thwack across the back of head as a copper who happened to be standing there whacked me with his leather gauntlets. Told me to pick it up and go and apologise to the trader! Instant solution, it hurt and I was embarrassed in front of my mates. These days the scum would threaten to sue the copper for assault or some such nonsense! What gets my goat is that their parents are being charged a small amount compared the the value of the damage done.
Why were they out at 4am when they had an exam next day
Yes they did £30K worth of damage and people are saying it can be rebuilt but if it were me I might well feel totally demoralised and think F-it, can't be bothered,
After giving this some thought I still don’t know how I feel about this, I know that if they had damaged my models I would be devastated, as most of my models are scratch built there isn’t much material value in them but how do you value all the hours of work they take to design and build? Its alright saying you have built it once so you can do it again, but I don’t have the time available to remake them all. But what good is locking them up really going to do other than make me feel better? I know I for certain I wouldn’t want them down at my local railway club for 6 months as Eric Mc suggested.
Since this has happened when I exhibit at shows, I only leave RTR models and what I can quickly remake. Everything else I take home each night.
Since this has happened when I exhibit at shows, I only leave RTR models and what I can quickly remake. Everything else I take home each night.
I think some of the lads might respond well to a bit of education and encouragement. Often in cases like this there are leaders and followers. The leader who came up with the idea of thrashing the exhibition is probably beyond redemption. The followers might be worth taking some time with.
Research has shown that deterrent sentencing has very little effect on rates of offending.
"The research shows that imprisonment has, at best, no effect on the rate of reoffending and is often criminogenic, resulting in a greater rate of recidivism by imprisoned offenders compared with offenders who received a different sentencing outcome."
From this; a paper from the "Sentencing Advisory Council" link here:
https://www.sentencingcouncil.vic.gov.au/sites/def...
An Australian study, but you only have to look elsewhere in the world where draconian penalties apply (e.g. death penalty in USA) to see that this is a universal human truth.
"The research shows that imprisonment has, at best, no effect on the rate of reoffending and is often criminogenic, resulting in a greater rate of recidivism by imprisoned offenders compared with offenders who received a different sentencing outcome."
From this; a paper from the "Sentencing Advisory Council" link here:
https://www.sentencingcouncil.vic.gov.au/sites/def...
An Australian study, but you only have to look elsewhere in the world where draconian penalties apply (e.g. death penalty in USA) to see that this is a universal human truth.
silverfoxcc said:
Rumble
You said
An Australian study, but you only have to look elsewhere in the world where draconian penalties apply (e.g. death penalty in USA) to see that this is a universal human truth.
I think you will find those executed DO NOT re-offend
Indeed but nor does even the more draconian of punishments deter the criminal from committing a crime in the first place, which was the point I was making. Personally I'd rather that the crime wasn't committed at all rather than see punishment, however well deserved, meted out.You said
An Australian study, but you only have to look elsewhere in the world where draconian penalties apply (e.g. death penalty in USA) to see that this is a universal human truth.
I think you will find those executed DO NOT re-offend
In short the concept that punishing a criminal deters anyone else from crime is a proven falsehood.
Eric Mc said:
I think they should be made attend the model railway club for six months running helping with the layouts and operations - whether they want to or not.
Sounds like a cruel and unusual punishment to me.Seriously, though, it doesn't look to me as if this has had any significant consequences for them, which doesn't feel right. The only outcome of investigating and prosecuting this crime has been a cost to the taxpayer. Was it even worth doing anything about it at all?
Some kids have trashed a model show and folk are talking about capital punishment....
Please remember this isn’t NP&E.
The interesting thing is that the people who regularly post in this sub forum (I.e. people that actually make models and understand the effort involved) seem to be leaning towards the rehabilitation angle.
I’m not sure what that means, but perhaps it’s important.
Please remember this isn’t NP&E.
The interesting thing is that the people who regularly post in this sub forum (I.e. people that actually make models and understand the effort involved) seem to be leaning towards the rehabilitation angle.
I’m not sure what that means, but perhaps it’s important.
robemcdonald said:
Some kids have trashed a model show and folk are talking about capital punishment... etc.
It's actually quite an interesting discussion isn't it. There can be few more harmless and gentle pastimes than model railways. The models themselves often realise some sort of idealised version of the past. Nothing gets hurt. Destroying these miniature utopias therefore seems a particularly nihilistic thing to do. "Our real life is a bit s
tty, so we're going to wreck these little visions of a less-stty world too. Nobody gets out alive." Obviously, I doubt that was ever articulated. I don't think many children make anything very much today. But I think that's what is behind the passionate reaction to this particular incident.
Why did they do it? Model-making has never been cool, but looking back at my own childhood nearly all the boys had a stab at a few (or more) kits, and lots of us had Hornby train sets. In fact, I struggle to remember any who definitely didn't have models in some form or other. I put on a little model show with a couple of other boys when I was about 14, to raise funds for a ski trip. Nothing got broken, several of the rougher older boys unexpectedly came up to talk about their own models, and this was at a comp with a pretty lousy reputation. But I think most kids had some understanding that things like model railways don't spring into existence spontaneously, and respected them accordingly.
I don't know that modern children understand that – I don't think many actually make things. (I may be wrong and would be happy to learn that.) I know there are various games that are creative, but that's not the same as really physically making something.
Edited by Yertis on Friday 23 August 14:07
Yertis said:
It's actually quite an interesting discussion isn't it. There can be few more harmless and gentle pastimes than model railways. The models themselves often realise some sort of idealised version of the past. Nothing gets hurt.
Destroying these miniature utopias therefore therefore seems a particularly nihilistic thing to do. "Our real life is a bit stty, so we're going to wreck these little visions of a less-stty world too. Nobody gets out alive." Obviously, I doubt that was ever articulated. I don't think many children make anything very much today.
But I think that's what is behind the passionate reaction to this particular incident.
Why did they do it? Model-making has never been cool, but looking back at my own childhood nearly all the boys had a stab at a few (or more) kits, and lots of us had Hornby train sets. In fact, I struggle to remember any who definitely didn't have models in some form or other. I put on a little model show with a couple of other boys when I was about 14, to raise funds for a ski trip. Nothing got broken, several of the rougher older boys unexpectedly came up to talk about their own models, and this was at a comp with a pretty lousy reputation. But I think most kids had some understanding that things like model railways don't spring into existence spontaneously, and respected them accordingly.
I don't know that modern children understand that – I don't think many actually make things. (I may be wrong and would be happy to learn that.) I know there are various games that are creative, but that's not the same as really physically making something.
I quite like that.Destroying these miniature utopias therefore therefore seems a particularly nihilistic thing to do. "Our real life is a bit s
tty, so we're going to wreck these little visions of a less-stty world too. Nobody gets out alive." Obviously, I doubt that was ever articulated. I don't think many children make anything very much today. But I think that's what is behind the passionate reaction to this particular incident.
Why did they do it? Model-making has never been cool, but looking back at my own childhood nearly all the boys had a stab at a few (or more) kits, and lots of us had Hornby train sets. In fact, I struggle to remember any who definitely didn't have models in some form or other. I put on a little model show with a couple of other boys when I was about 14, to raise funds for a ski trip. Nothing got broken, several of the rougher older boys unexpectedly came up to talk about their own models, and this was at a comp with a pretty lousy reputation. But I think most kids had some understanding that things like model railways don't spring into existence spontaneously, and respected them accordingly.
I don't know that modern children understand that – I don't think many actually make things. (I may be wrong and would be happy to learn that.) I know there are various games that are creative, but that's not the same as really physically making something.
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