Ice hockey player dies

[Pete102]

Just sat here thinking a little more about the attituded on both sides. For note, I do not play anymore so the ultimate outcome is unlikely to effect me, but, we cannot ignore agenda bias from either side.

Specifically referencing the view from current players, any form of legal intervention regarding what happens on the ice would make me quite nervous for the future. Accidents and incidents do happen, it would be a valid concern to think that they could also be wrapped up as part of a police investigation owing to something like this happening again (a bad check, skate cut, on-ice violence etc.).

Anyway, just an idle thought.

Lets try and keep the discussion productive and respectful, there are valid points from everyone.

[YorkshireStu]

Oof, watched the video. That’s a raised leg for sure.

I do not believe it was an aimed raised leg. I do not believe serious harm was intended.

It looks like an awful accident…a leg raised at the player but inadvertently too high, terrible misfortune to have actually sliced a neck.

I can understand why the Police needed to investigate. They are not considering a murder charge, they know it was an accident.

However…they have clearly consulted actual experts - not PH - and feel that there might be grounds for a manslaughter charge.

But…he hasn’t been charged yet. He is being interviewed. This means that there is doubt as to intent to raise the leg. If they find having spoken to the player that there was intent to raise the leg then a manslaughter charge may ensue, if not, he’s cleared.

I don’t see the issue with the enquiry. It should be standard procedure when someone dies in sport.

The real experts will no doubt decide.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

Respectfully to those of first hand experience of the game at the least something needs to change. That wasn't physics of a leg thrown up.

Again if two drivers in F1 are side by side and one swerves nto the other with an incident leading to death. Is it just a racing incident?

[Pete102]

Hugo Stiglitz said:

Respectfully to those of first hand experience of the game at the least something needs to change. That wasn't physics of a leg thrown up.

Again if two drivers in F1 are side by side and one swerves nto the other with an incident leading to death. Is it just a racing incident?

What would be your suggestion for change? Already this would have resulted in ejection from the match with supplementary discipline from the league.

And, how can you be sure it was not physics leading to an initial raising of the leg? Have you played or skated? Experienced that type of motion on skates previously?

Watching the video (and not the gif posted previously) and having experienced this type of motion gives a different view.

[Bonefish Blues]

Pete102 said:

Secondly, I still maintain my position (as an ex-professional, played hockey since I was 10) that whilst it was somewhat reckless, it was not intentional. Of course he wanted to make physical contact, but in the context of the game it makes zero sense to intentionally go in blades first. As I mentioned previously a good "check" is one whereby the attacking player takes out the "checked" player and manages to stay on their feet to rejoin the play immediately, otherwise its 50/50. I pointed out in the early days that there was contact between the skates leading to the off balance, this will be an important point in the investigation.

I read that the police have been engaging with experts, I imagine these will be other hockey coaches, referee associations, governing bodies and skating instructors, all of which usually include ex-professionals.

From what we have seen so far, there is definitely a split between people that think it was intentional, and those that don't.

Oh and for those that think he is a dirty player due to his penalty minutes, in 2006 I managed to rack up over 130 minutes in 7 games, with the majority from a single game whereby several scuffles broke out and I was ejected. I was not considered as a dirty player.

The part in bold could tip into the realm of manslaughter.

[YorkshireStu]

Pete102 said:

What would be your suggestion for change? Already this would have resulted in ejection from the match with supplementary discipline from the league.

And, how can you be sure it was not physics leading to an initial raising of the leg? Have you played or skated? Experienced that type of motion on skates previously?

Watching the video (and not the gif posted previously) and having experienced this type of motion gives a different view.

If the investigation concludes that physics led to the raised leg then of course the player will be cleared. If intent to raise the leg is found then a manslaughter charge is of course possible. Degrees of intent, existence of malice or just to push away etc are considered.

At this stage it is just an investigation though so everyone is just speculating.

Hopefully you are correct and it is a terrible accident with zero intent to raise the leg.

[Tam_Mullen]

Hugo Stiglitz said:

Respectfully to those of first hand experience of the game at the least something needs to change. That wasn't physics of a leg thrown up.

Again if two drivers in F1 are side by side and one swerves nto the other with an incident leading to death. Is it just a racing incident?

I'd agree that it wasn't the physics of a leg thrown up.

But I do think it was the physics of the weight of a body being thrown forward over the CoG of his skates. think if you shoulder barged a door, but there was no weight to the door and no resistance to the force youre exerting, you would over balance and I would bet your leg/legs come swinging up behind you in an attempt to regain balance.

Edit: the reason I reference shoulder barging without hitting is because he attempted a (pretty forceful) check and missed.

Edited by Tam_Mullen on Wednesday 15th November 08:13

[Pete102]

Bonefish Blues said:

The part in bold could tip into the realm of manslaughter.

Yep, my thinking also to be honest.

[Driver101]

Tam_Mullen said:

Hugo Stiglitz said:

Respectfully to those of first hand experience of the game at the least something needs to change. That wasn't physics of a leg thrown up.

Again if two drivers in F1 are side by side and one swerves nto the other with an incident leading to death. Is it just a racing incident?

I'd agree that it wasn't the physics of a leg thrown up.

But I do think it was the physics of the weight of a body being thrown forward over the CoG of his skates. think if you shoulder barged a door, but there was no weight to the door and no resistance to the force youre exerting, you would over balance and I would bet your leg/legs come swinging up behind you in an attempt to regain balance.

Edit: the reason I reference shoulder barging without hitting is because he attempted a (pretty forceful) check and missed.

Edited by Tam_Mullen on Wednesday 15th November 08:13

His legs didn't come swinging up after him. His leg was the lead part of his body.

I think leading with the leg in the motion he is moving and falling is unnatural.

[Hilts]

Looks very much like a deliberate kick to me, reason it hits his neck is not that the kick is particularly high but Johnson is coming in low and at an angle so is very unlucky.

Watched this analysis on YT - 'Former D1 hockey player breaks down Adam Johnson's Death' and he has no doubts at all.

A lot of the comments on the vid are from current and ex-players who all say it was an intentional kick.

Court case if it goes ahead will be interesting.

[Pommy]

Hilts said:

Looks very much like a deliberate kick to me, reason it hits his neck is not that the kick is particularly high but Johnson is coming in low and at an angle so is very unlucky.

Watched this analysis on YT - 'Former D1 hockey player breaks down Adam Johnson's Death' and he has no doubts at all.

A lot of the comments on the vid are from current and ex-players who all say it was an intentional kick.

Court case if it goes ahead will be interesting.

But physics educated ex professional ice hockey players with a specialisation in police procedure and detective work think that anyone who differs is a moron and needs to give their head a wobble, including the police.

Edited by Pommy on Wednesday 15th November 11:35

[skwdenyer]

My two pen’orth: getting sliced with a skate is the risk you take for playing a contact sport on ice.

We wouldn’t allow play without helmets - that would be reckless (these days, at least: my Mother remembers being shamed at school for wearing a helmet to play Lacrosse). But we allow play without neck protection. This also seems reckless. How that passes a modern British-context risk assessment I’m not sure.

Arguing about whether the leg lift was intentional or not seems to be besides the point. The risk is the same; the lack of risk management is the same. It is not possible to regulate away any risk of a repeat by policing leg altitude. The risk of getting sliced after a fall, say, is still there.

[Sheetmaself]

Pommy said:

Hilts said:

Looks very much like a deliberate kick to me, reason it hits his neck is not that the kick is particularly high but Johnson is coming in low and at an angle so is very unlucky.

Watched this analysis on YT - 'Former D1 hockey player breaks down Adam Johnson's Death' and he has no doubts at all.

A lot of the comments on the vid are from current and ex-players who all say it was an intentional kick.

Court case if it goes ahead will be interesting.

But physics educated ex professional ice hockey players with a specialisation in police procedure and detective work think that anyone who differs is a moron and needs to give their head a wobble, including the police.

Edited by Pommy on Wednesday 15th November 11:35

You really do come across well Pommy!

You have people on this thread giving their opinions, some opinions are based on looking at a video, some are based on a gif which doesn’t show the full picture, some are based on seeing the live event, some are based on a skating background, some are based on a background of playing Ice Hockey, some are based on a Legal background.

Yes some seem to not be able to cope with opinions that differ from their own, but quite frankly i will put you at the top of that particular barrel.

Let’s not lose sight of the fact that someone has died playing a sport and someone’s life rightly or wrongly could potentially be in the balance for their future.

This isn’t a thread that needs to be “won”

Edited by Sheetmaself on Wednesday 15th November 14:13

[TikTak]

I've got to say that when I saw it a couple of weeks ago I thought it looked a little suspicious even before I started to read all the opinions and the details on the other guys former misdemeanors.

Been watching NHL + other leagues since the early 90s and played a little when I was young and not sure I've ever seen a skate go that high and direct towards someone even with contact from a challenge.

I'm pretty confident he's meant to catch AJ47 in the body to take him out/slow him down and it's gone horribly wrong.

[The Gauge]

cymatty said:

As the Nottingham player put it so well, you and the guy above can enjoy hell as you have zero idea what you are on about.

https://twitter.com/maccatalkhockey/status/1719427...

Well the Nottingham player is clearly deluded in my opinion. He's letting sentiment and the sense of brotherhood of the sport cloud his judgement. I shall remain out of hell for now, thank you.

[Nethybridge]

Pete102 said:

Bonefish Blues said:

The part in bold could tip into the realm of manslaughter.

Yep, my thinking also to be honest.

Definition of Manslaughter:

"Where an unlawful killing is done without an intention to kill or to cause grievous bodily harm, the suspect is to be charged with manslaughter not murder. Apart from the absence of the requisite intent, all other elements of the offence are the same as for murder"

If it goes to court it relies greatly on " expert " interpretation of the video
to prove or not prove recklessness,
apart from witness testimony that's all they have.

[dave123456]

Pommy said:

But physics educated ex professional ice hockey players with a specialisation in police procedure and detective work think that anyone who differs is a moron and needs to give their head a wobble, including the police.

Edited by Pommy on Wednesday 15th November 11:35

Despite being edited this still makes no sense

[Mastodon2]

Hilts said:

Watched this analysis on YT - 'Former D1 hockey player breaks down Adam Johnson's Death' and he has no doubts at all.

A lot of the comments on the vid are from current and ex-players who all say it was an intentional.

A good thing that the police has consulted some experts and the sentiment of objective pro/former pro players looking at the incident seems to be that the leg was raised intentionally. There appear to be some self-appointed experts who want to play down what has happened, whether through emotions clouding their judgement, or through a deliberate desire to protect the 'old boys club' of their sport.

[Pommy]

Sheetmaself said:

Pommy said:

Hilts said:

Looks very much like a deliberate kick to me, reason it hits his neck is not that the kick is particularly high but Johnson is coming in low and at an angle so is very unlucky.

Watched this analysis on YT - 'Former D1 hockey player breaks down Adam Johnson's Death' and he has no doubts at all.

A lot of the comments on the vid are from current and ex-players who all say it was an intentional kick.

Court case if it goes ahead will be interesting.

But physics educated ex professional ice hockey players with a specialisation in police procedure and detective work think that anyone who differs is a moron and needs to give their head a wobble, including the police.

Edited by Pommy on Wednesday 15th November 11:35

You really do come across well Pommy!

You have people on this thread giving their opinions, some opinions are based on looking at a video, some are based on a gif which doesn’t show the full picture, some are based on seeing the live event, some are based on a skating background, some are based on a background of playing Ice Hockey, some are based on a Legal background.

Yes some seem to not be able to cope with opinions that differ from their own, but quite frankly i will put you at the top of that particular barrel.

Let’s not lose sight of the fact that someone has died playing a sport and someone’s life rightly or wrongly could potentially be in the balance for their future.

This isn’t a thread that needs to be “won”

Edited by Sheetmaself on Wednesday 15th November 14:13

The issue here is that prior to the arrest I can understand multiple views - post arrest with the police having refenced their experts and, let's be clear, making a formal arrest and holding the person in custody, we still have people referring to their sports experience and giving absolutes that anyone who thinks different to them is crazy.

To make an arrest and detain in custody a suspect means there is a clear view from authorities the issue has merit.

So in this instance it is not I who cannot handle a different viewpoint.

Edited by Pommy on Thursday 16th November 00:34

[Sheetmaself]

Like i said, this isn’t a thread that needs to be won and therefore if that is your viewpoint then thats fine.