Ice hockey player dies

[ColdoRS]

From the evidence we have;

I don't believe that the leg coming up and hitting the player was totally, 100%, unintentional and entirely out of the control of the owner of said leg.

I think it was a reckless hail Mary attempt to halt the opposition players progress on the ice; resulting in the opposition players death. I suppose that is manslaughter in the eyes of the law.

I feel for the charged, what a mess he's gotten himself into from a bad, split second decision. I don't think he should go to jail. Ban him from the sport and let him live with the regret of his actions, that's plenty punishment.

[Pitre]

ColdoRS said:

From the evidence we have;

I don't believe that the leg coming up and hitting the player was totally, 100%, unintentional and entirely out of the control of the owner of said leg.

I think it was a reckless hail Mary attempt to halt the opposition players progress on the ice; resulting in the opposition players death. I suppose that is manslaughter in the eyes of the law.

I feel for the charged, what a mess he's gotten himself into from a bad, split second decision. I don't think he should go to jail. Ban him from the sport and let him live with the regret of his actions, that's plenty punishment.

I'm not sure the deceased's relatives would agree...

[usn90]

Pitre said:

ColdoRS said:

From the evidence we have;

I don't believe that the leg coming up and hitting the player was totally, 100%, unintentional and entirely out of the control of the owner of said leg.

I think it was a reckless hail Mary attempt to halt the opposition players progress on the ice; resulting in the opposition players death. I suppose that is manslaughter in the eyes of the law.

I feel for the charged, what a mess he's gotten himself into from a bad, split second decision. I don't think he should go to jail. Ban him from the sport and let him live with the regret of his actions, that's plenty punishment.

I'm not sure the deceased's relatives would agree...

No, I’d want jail time for sure.

I said at the time that my thoughts were although the ending result was unintended, the action was deliberate and absolutely reckless,

Now someone’s son,brother, partner is dead due to someone’s else’s reckless behaviour, shouldn’t go unpunished

[Pitre]

usn90 said:

No, I’d want jail time for sure.

I said at the time that my thoughts were although the ending result was unintended, the action was deliberate and absolutely reckless,

Now someone’s son,brother, partner is dead due to someone’s else’s reckless behaviour, shouldn’t go unpunished

Indeed. You'd have to be a bit dim to not think that raising your skate to the vicinity of an opponent's neck just might cause some damage.

[BigRuts]

All i know is that after an hour of wearing a neck guard I don't like it and wish this event had never happened!

[Fermit]

I haven't seen the footage, or followed the case closely. However, I have a friend, a life long Steelers fan, who attended the game in question. He is as straight as they come, and he has said that it was completely a freak accident.

I would be interested in seeing the case the Police feel they have, but until such a time I will put my faith in my friends opinion, who's been watching games all his life, and who saw the events unfold in real time.

[dave123456]

Fermit said:

I haven't seen the footage, or followed the case closely. However, I have a friend, a life long Steelers fan, who attended the game in question. He is as straight as they come, and he has said that it was completely a freak accident.

I would be interested in seeing the case the Police feel they have, but until such a time I will put my faith in my friends opinion, who's been watching games all his life, and who saw the events unfold in real time.

Get this thread has been contentious at times but I’m not convinced by the ‘I was there’ approach to greater authority on what happened.

If it was, to take a topical example, a demo march, one can glean a lot from the atmosphere of such an event.

But to see that once, rink side, with no replay, in my opinion gives no credibility to their view.

And that’s just my view…

[Louis Balfour]

Fermit said:

I haven't seen the footage, or followed the case closely. However, I have a friend, a life long Steelers fan, who attended the game in question. He is as straight as they come, and he has said that it was completely a freak accident.

I haven’t seen the footage either, and don’t intend to, but I prefer that evidence to an eye witness statement from an attendee. Particularly if they are a supporter of the team for which the offender plays.

The CPS must have been under some pressure to bring charges, given how visible and contentious the incident was.

[Bonefish Blues]

dave123456 said:

Fermit said:

I haven't seen the footage, or followed the case closely. However, I have a friend, a life long Steelers fan, who attended the game in question. He is as straight as they come, and he has said that it was completely a freak accident.

I would be interested in seeing the case the Police feel they have, but until such a time I will put my faith in my friends opinion, who's been watching games all his life, and who saw the events unfold in real time.

Get this thread has been contentious at times but I’m not convinced by the ‘I was there’ approach to greater authority on what happened.

If it was, to take a topical example, a demo march, one can glean a lot from the atmosphere of such an event.

But to see that once, rink side, with no replay, in my opinion gives no credibility to their view.

And that’s just my view…

I agree - a moment of madness takes a mere moment and is easily missed, and not subject to replays. Eye witnesses' recollections are notably inaccurate even shortly after the event.

[Legacywr]

Bonefish Blues said:

dave123456 said:

Fermit said:

I haven't seen the footage, or followed the case closely. However, I have a friend, a life long Steelers fan, who attended the game in question. He is as straight as they come, and he has said that it was completely a freak accident.

I would be interested in seeing the case the Police feel they have, but until such a time I will put my faith in my friends opinion, who's been watching games all his life, and who saw the events unfold in real time.

Get this thread has been contentious at times but I’m not convinced by the ‘I was there’ approach to greater authority on what happened.

If it was, to take a topical example, a demo march, one can glean a lot from the atmosphere of such an event.

But to see that once, rink side, with no replay, in my opinion gives no credibility to their view.

And that’s just my view…

I agree - a moment of madness takes a mere moment and is easily missed, and not subject to replays. Eye witnesses' recollections are notably inaccurate even shortly after the event.

Just look at football fans screaming at the ref, when we can clearly see what happened via the replay on TV.

[The Gauge]

Fermit said:

I haven't seen the footage, or followed the case closely. However, I have a friend, a life long Steelers fan, who attended the game in question. He is as straight as they come, and he has said that it was completely a freak accident.

I can't see how anyone who was there in the crowd could have actually seen what happened. For me it took me multiple replays of the video to decide it looked intentional, as it happens so quick. But then when the slow motion video was published it sealed my opinion.

In my mind he intentionally lifted up his blade to the other players chest/head area. I believe he intentionally kicked him (or however you describe such an action) but probably meant to just jolt him in the chest to stop him, but it went wrong, maybe the plastic chest protection caused the blade to slide upwards to his throat?. So for me it was reckless, with an outcome that could have been predicted as soon as he decided to do it.

[skwdenyer]

usn90 said:

Pitre said:

ColdoRS said:

From the evidence we have;

I don't believe that the leg coming up and hitting the player was totally, 100%, unintentional and entirely out of the control of the owner of said leg.

I think it was a reckless hail Mary attempt to halt the opposition players progress on the ice; resulting in the opposition players death. I suppose that is manslaughter in the eyes of the law.

I feel for the charged, what a mess he's gotten himself into from a bad, split second decision. I don't think he should go to jail. Ban him from the sport and let him live with the regret of his actions, that's plenty punishment.

I'm not sure the deceased's relatives would agree...

No, I’d want jail time for sure.

I said at the time that my thoughts were although the ending result was unintended, the action was deliberate and absolutely reckless,

Now someone’s son,brother, partner is dead due to someone’s else’s reckless behaviour, shouldn’t go unpunished

Not for the first time I’m likely to be out of step with many, but why would you want jail time? I wouldn’t. Retribution has no justifiable place in a criminal justice system in cases such as this. It offers no plausible disincentive to future actions in ice hockey matches, because it holds the wrong participant to account - any culpability should rest with regulators and team owners for failing to ensure the safety of players with well-known and widely-available protective equipment, not with a player who in no plausible universe would have been deterred in that split second from a leg-cock by the knowledge that it might mean a manslaughter charge.

To me this is the very definition of an accident at work. That somebody died is regrettable, but immaterial - we should regulate and punish actions IMHO, not outcomes, and strive for ever-higher safety standards.

But, like motor racing, ice hockey is dangerous. People will get hurt. Some will die. That is a part of the allure of the sport for many.

[dave123456]

skwdenyer said:

usn90 said:

Pitre said:

ColdoRS said:

From the evidence we have;

I don't believe that the leg coming up and hitting the player was totally, 100%, unintentional and entirely out of the control of the owner of said leg.

I think it was a reckless hail Mary attempt to halt the opposition players progress on the ice; resulting in the opposition players death. I suppose that is manslaughter in the eyes of the law.

I feel for the charged, what a mess he's gotten himself into from a bad, split second decision. I don't think he should go to jail. Ban him from the sport and let him live with the regret of his actions, that's plenty punishment.

I'm not sure the deceased's relatives would agree...

No, I’d want jail time for sure.

I said at the time that my thoughts were although the ending result was unintended, the action was deliberate and absolutely reckless,

Now someone’s son,brother, partner is dead due to someone’s else’s reckless behaviour, shouldn’t go unpunished

Not for the first time I’m likely to be out of step with many, but why would you want jail time? I wouldn’t. Retribution has no justifiable place in a criminal justice system in cases such as this. It offers no plausible disincentive to future actions in ice hockey matches, because it holds the wrong participant to account - any culpability should rest with regulators and team owners for failing to ensure the safety of players with well-known and widely-available protective equipment, not with a player who in no plausible universe would have been deterred in that split second from a leg-cock by the knowledge that it might mean a manslaughter charge.

To me this is the very definition of an accident at work. That somebody died is regrettable, but immaterial - we should regulate and punish actions IMHO, not outcomes, and strive for ever-higher safety standards.

But, like motor racing, ice hockey is dangerous. People will get hurt. Some will die. That is a part of the allure of the sport for many.

So you are devolving risk assessment to players in the moment?

Assuming he understands the rules if a player wishes to operate outside of them he has to take accountability for his actions, whether that be going to jail or compromising his team’s strength by spending time off the field.

[usn90]

skwdenyer said:

usn90 said:

Pitre said:

ColdoRS said:

From the evidence we have;

I don't believe that the leg coming up and hitting the player was totally, 100%, unintentional and entirely out of the control of the owner of said leg.

I think it was a reckless hail Mary attempt to halt the opposition players progress on the ice; resulting in the opposition players death. I suppose that is manslaughter in the eyes of the law.

I feel for the charged, what a mess he's gotten himself into from a bad, split second decision. I don't think he should go to jail. Ban him from the sport and let him live with the regret of his actions, that's plenty punishment.

I'm not sure the deceased's relatives would agree...

No, I’d want jail time for sure.

I said at the time that my thoughts were although the ending result was unintended, the action was deliberate and absolutely reckless,

Now someone’s son,brother, partner is dead due to someone’s else’s reckless behaviour, shouldn’t go unpunished

Not for the first time I’m likely to be out of step with many, but why would you want jail time? I wouldn’t. Retribution has no justifiable place in a criminal justice system in cases such as this. It offers no plausible disincentive to future actions in ice hockey matches, because it holds the wrong participant to account - any culpability should rest with regulators and team owners for failing to ensure the safety of players with well-known and widely-available protective equipment, not with a player who in no plausible universe would have been deterred in that split second from a leg-cock by the knowledge that it might mean a manslaughter charge.

To me this is the very definition of an accident at work. That somebody died is regrettable, but immaterial - we should regulate and punish actions IMHO, not outcomes, and strive for ever-higher safety standards.

But, like motor racing, ice hockey is dangerous. People will get hurt. Some will die. That is a part of the allure of the sport for many.

Because the other player has blatantly IMO attempted to stop the victim from progressing, he did it in such a reckless manner that he killed him.

If that was my son simply banning him wouldn’t be enough, neither would jail as it happens.

Accidents in sports happen, but for me this is just reckless negligence on the suspects part

Everyone know s how dangerous the Blades are, and this idiots used his foot to block

Edited by usn90 on Thursday 16th November 13:14

Edited by usn90 on Thursday 16th November 13:16

[skwdenyer]

dave123456 said:

skwdenyer said:

usn90 said:

Pitre said:

ColdoRS said:

From the evidence we have;

I don't believe that the leg coming up and hitting the player was totally, 100%, unintentional and entirely out of the control of the owner of said leg.

I think it was a reckless hail Mary attempt to halt the opposition players progress on the ice; resulting in the opposition players death. I suppose that is manslaughter in the eyes of the law.

I feel for the charged, what a mess he's gotten himself into from a bad, split second decision. I don't think he should go to jail. Ban him from the sport and let him live with the regret of his actions, that's plenty punishment.

I'm not sure the deceased's relatives would agree...

No, I’d want jail time for sure.

I said at the time that my thoughts were although the ending result was unintended, the action was deliberate and absolutely reckless,

Now someone’s son,brother, partner is dead due to someone’s else’s reckless behaviour, shouldn’t go unpunished

Not for the first time I’m likely to be out of step with many, but why would you want jail time? I wouldn’t. Retribution has no justifiable place in a criminal justice system in cases such as this. It offers no plausible disincentive to future actions in ice hockey matches, because it holds the wrong participant to account - any culpability should rest with regulators and team owners for failing to ensure the safety of players with well-known and widely-available protective equipment, not with a player who in no plausible universe would have been deterred in that split second from a leg-cock by the knowledge that it might mean a manslaughter charge.

To me this is the very definition of an accident at work. That somebody died is regrettable, but immaterial - we should regulate and punish actions IMHO, not outcomes, and strive for ever-higher safety standards.

But, like motor racing, ice hockey is dangerous. People will get hurt. Some will die. That is a part of the allure of the sport for many.

So you are devolving risk assessment to players in the moment?

Assuming he understands the rules if a player wishes to operate outside of them he has to take accountability for his actions, whether that be going to jail or compromising his team’s strength by spending time off the field.

Risk assessment should sit with the teams, the league, the sport's governing bodies.

Devolving risk assessment to the players is what has happened here - governors have eschewed responsibility (even now, not mandating neck guards, even though other leagues do so), whilst the player has been arrested for manslaughter.

Protective equipment is not player responsibility. If players play with what they've been given, within the rules, then criminal culpability on them has no place IMHO.

Has the sport's governing body launched an investigation into the player's conduct? If so, let it play out. If his conduct was outside of the rules, then maybe criminal culpability should follow. But it should be in that order. Otherwise players more willing to risk criminal culpability (but playing within the rules) will always have an advantage.

[skwdenyer]

usn90 said:

Because the other player has blatantly IMO attempted to stop the victim from progressing, he did it in such a reckless manner that he killed him.

If that was my son simply banning him wouldn’t be enough, neither would jail as it happens.

Accidents in sports happen, but for me this is just reckless negligence on the suspects part

Everyone know s how dangerous the Blades are, and this idiots used his foot to block

Edited by usn90 on Thursday 16th November 13:14

Edited by usn90 on Thursday 16th November 13:16

You say that. Other experts disagree with you. There's no current consensus as to whether the player's actions were reckless, deliberate, or culpable.

And, I say again, how will criminal charges change future outcomes? I'm a great fan of systems such as Norway's, which are proven to work, rather than our knee-jerk retribution-based system. If people can't understand that locking people up is almost always the wrong answer, it is the people who need to change IMHO.

[Pete102]

Thread is very much going round in circles at this point.

[usn90]

skwdenyer said:

usn90 said:

Because the other player has blatantly IMO attempted to stop the victim from progressing, he did it in such a reckless manner that he killed him.

If that was my son simply banning him wouldn’t be enough, neither would jail as it happens.

Accidents in sports happen, but for me this is just reckless negligence on the suspects part

Everyone know s how dangerous the Blades are, and this idiots used his foot to block

Edited by usn90 on Thursday 16th November 13:14

Edited by usn90 on Thursday 16th November 13:16

You say that. Other experts disagree with you. There's no current consensus as to whether the player's actions were reckless, deliberate, or culpable.

And, I say again, how will criminal charges change future outcomes? I'm a great fan of systems such as Norway's, which are proven to work, rather than our knee-jerk retribution-based system. If people can't understand that locking people up is almost always the wrong answer, it is the people who need to change IMHO.

Well for starts I’m not an expert, I’m just calling what I see, and to me it looks clear, however there are experts that do think this was a deliberate action.

I do agree that the sport has been negligent to allow this risk in the first place, and I see steps have been taken to rectify this particular issue, however the players themselves have some responsibility to act in a safe manner, there is, as I say, a extremely sharp blade at play here, it’s deadly weapon and should be treated as such, and extending your legs out that high exposing the blade to other players in that way is reckless in my books.

[dave123456]

skwdenyer said:

Risk assessment should sit with the teams, the league, the sport's governing bodies.

Devolving risk assessment to the players is what has happened here - governors have eschewed responsibility (even now, not mandating neck guards, even though other leagues do so), whilst the player has been arrested for manslaughter.

Protective equipment is not player responsibility. If players play with what they've been given, within the rules, then criminal culpability on them has no place IMHO.

Has the sport's governing body launched an investigation into the player's conduct? If so, let it play out. If his conduct was outside of the rules, then maybe criminal culpability should follow. But it should be in that order. Otherwise players more willing to risk criminal culpability (but playing within the rules) will always have an advantage.

I would contend his conduct was blatantly outside of the rules. And under your suggestion the amount of cost you would pump into the sport’s governing body would be astronomical.

As someone says this is going around in circles. There are two camps, the camp where lashings of machoism suggest that men should be men and take huge risks. The scrappy doo camp we could call it.. for no particular reason.

And the more empathetic camp, that can see someone’s death here, and the affect that will have on a large group of people.

To try and write this off as a bit of collateral damage resulting from people playing in the spirit of the game is pretty ignorant. There was no intention to kill, or seriously harm, anyone. However there was a clumsy attempt to hinder someone’s progress.

[Ankh87]

Unless you play ice hockey or have a decent amount of experience ice skating then you can't say if it were intentional or not. Even then no one still can't be 100% sure he did it on purpose.

I have a decent amount of experience on the rink and sometimes what can happen is your skate can catch the ice in a certain way, which can cause your leg to kick up.