Ice hockey player dies

[Gweeds]

‘Karate move’

Give me strength. You have ex-pros here and current players explaining it in depth and we have that nonsense.

Heads. Give them a wobble.

[Pete102]

There is an interview on the Daily Mail website (apologies) with ex-NHL player Sean Avery.

While Avery was one of the biggest wind-up merchant dirty players of his time, he makes a good point that while this was almost 99.9% not intentional, it was somewhat reckless.

A previous poster has alluded that hockey is considered somewhat of a Gentleman's sport, what happens on the ice stays on the ice, laugh and bury the hatchet over a beer afterwards. I can appreciate this sentiment seems like a weak justification in light of these events but I simply do not believe it was intentional or he set out with a view to making impact to the players neck with his skate.

As I mentioned in my previous posts, the UK Ice Hockey governing body has now mandated neck guards from 1st January, however, I though I should atleast list some of my reasons for not fully agreeing with the approach.

• Neck guards are limited in what they can protect depending on size, material and style. Make them too big and there is a risk of restricting movement which could lead to an increase rate of bodily impacts and corresponding concussion type injuries.

• Depending on the style of neck guard, they may protect against slashing type movements but not crush impacts. Even if it does not break the skin, a thin piece of metal travelling at 20mph and 90kg behind it is more then capable of doing some serious damage.

• The EIHA has acted unilaterally and seemingly without support or correspondence with the recognized world leaders in the sport (International Ice Hockey Federation and the NHL). Knowing some of the hockey players, it is only likely to discourage top talent from wanting to play in the league.

• Actions at the moment are being taken at an emotional level. The rate of incidence for this type of incident compared to the number of minutes of hockey played around the world is very small.

• Its an inherently dangerous sport, at what point is it decided that the risk is reduced to a sufficient level to be tolerable? Further equipment mandates? Removal of physical contact? A level of risk has to be tolerated by both society and the players, can we say rationally that based on what has happened and the history of the sport that this tolerability has been breached?

Apologies for the edits, weak formatting skills.

Edited by Pete102 on Tuesday 31st October 08:41

Edited by Pete102 on Tuesday 31st October 08:42

[usn90]

Well there appears to be professional players on both sides of the intentional and accident debate, so it’s understandable why the overwhelming majority of non players over social media and here are calling the other player out on this.

I’ve looked at it again, just doesn’t look accidental to me, again as I said above, by no means do I think he meant to achieve that outcome, but whatever his intentions were, I think there was a deliberate action.

[48Valves]

I’ve spoken to two people who were at the game and a number of players or ex players. None of them think it was deliberate.

The only people I’ve spoken to who think it was deliberate, have very little to no skating experience and what that have is from an hour at winter wonderland.

[Pete102]

usn90 said:

Well there appears to be professional players on both sides of the intentional and accident debate, so it’s understandable why the overwhelming majority of non players over social media and here are calling the other player out on this.

I’ve looked at it again, just doesn’t look accidental to me, again as I said above, by no means do I think he meant to achieve that outcome, but whatever his intentions were, I think there was a deliberate action.

Agreed, but a deliberate action for what? To make contact with the other player, of course that is part of the sport (albeit arguably reckless).

Deliberate action to make his skate hit the other players neck, very very doubtful but only he will know.

Many of the same people calling for the guy to be strung up are the same people who would get excited at a big physical hit or on-ice fight. There's no rhyme or reason in many cases other than following how they think they should feel or how the larger sentiment goes. Its far too early in the process for rationality to shine through.

The engineer in me says that if neck guards become mandatory, lets analyze the hazard and determine if the current designs are even fit for purpose.

I have read many posts saying that a simple neck guard would have prevented this, not strictly true as a the neck guards are only an inch and a half wide generally, they do not provide full coverage.

[usn90]

Pete102 said:

usn90 said:

Well there appears to be professional players on both sides of the intentional and accident debate, so it’s understandable why the overwhelming majority of non players over social media and here are calling the other player out on this.

I’ve looked at it again, just doesn’t look accidental to me, again as I said above, by no means do I think he meant to achieve that outcome, but whatever his intentions were, I think there was a deliberate action.

Agreed, but a deliberate action for what? To make contact with the other player, of course that is part of the sport (albeit arguably reckless).

Deliberate action to make his skate hit the other players neck, very very doubtful but only he will know.

Many of the same people calling for the guy to be strung up are the same people who would get excited at a big physical hit or on-ice fight. There's no rhyme or reason in many cases other than following how they think they should feel or how the larger sentiment goes. Its far too early in the process for rationality to shine through.

The engineer in me says that if neck guards become mandatory, lets analyze the hazard and determine if the current designs are even fit for purpose.

I have read many posts saying that a simple neck guard would have prevented this, not strictly true as a the neck guards are only an inch and a half wide generally, they do not provide full coverage.

My opinion is that he’s shoulder barged the first player, feet have contacted, and in the split moment exaggerated the reaction aiming to halt Johnson’s progress, as I said last night, I think it was a poorly executed intentional move with unintentional consequences.

I do not believe he intended to contact the neck region.

Regarding neck guards, it’s easy for me to say they should be mandatory, given I have no skin in this game, but had he been wearing one there’s a very good chance he could still be alive today.

Its like the “halo” in motorsports, I was dead against them to begin with, they restrict visibility and hamper escape, however there’s been at least 3 lives saved in F1 since its arrival.

[Zoon]

ChocolateFrog said:

Looks deliberate to me too.

Not necessarily to slit his throat but it looked like karate move.

Certainly a conscious action to raise his leg.

If a professional player who has played 764 games in the NHL thinks it's deliberate I'm not going to argue otherwise having played 0 games.

[Legacywr]

Gweeds said:

‘Karate move’

Give me strength. You have ex-pros here and current players explaining it in depth and we have that nonsense.

Heads. Give them a wobble.

It’s not dissimilar…

[Tam_Mullen]

Zoon said:

If a professional player who has played 764 games in the NHL thinks it's deliberate I'm not going to argue otherwise having played 0 games.

What if a player who played 765 games said it wasnt?

[Zoon]

Tam_Mullen said:

What if a player who played 765 games said it wasnt?

Back to square one...

[BigRuts]

All i know is i now have to try and find a neck guard before the end of the year whilst several thousands of others do the same. I can't imagine its going to be like covid where suppliers drop everything and rush to produce more!

[Sheetmaself]

I will just say that i have never tried a neck guard.

However, my reasoning for this decision is based on the fact that if they cover the whole neck and aren’t able to move then i assume them to be too restrictive both to breathing and to head movement. If they are able to move then in a situation like this the motion would likely lift the neck guard exposing the neck and therefore having no purpose.

I would be more inclined to use one if they offered protection from being hit in the throat by a puck as all players have had the puck hit them at either a join in the pads or off padding ie wrists and trust me it hurts like an absolute mutha!

[Pete102]

I had a neck guard when I was younger that had a plastic insert with sponge around it. I hated wearing it as it was both uncomfortable and horribly unhygienic, eventually I switched to what was essentially a peice of cloth offering minimal protection.

I have just seen there is now an iso standard for the equipment so hopefully a more technical approach.

[Killer2005]

A question for the hockey players from someone who's never played, would something like this work or would it be too restrictive?

https://www.ppss-group.com/news/slash-resistant-ne...

[BigRuts]

Killer2005 said:

A question for the hockey players from someone who's never played, would something like this work or would it be too restrictive?

https://www.ppss-group.com/news/slash-resistant-ne...

Thats more or less what they are expecting.

One as part of the base layer


Or as a standalone piece of equipment

[The Gauge]

Tam_Mullen said:

Im at a loss how people think its deliberate

Having replayed the video numerous times it certainly looks a deliberate kick to the upper body area, with the victims body lowering to the ground at the same time, but not because of, so the blade then contacts his throat. If so then its pretty reckless to kick out with your foot that has a blade attached.

Edited by The Gauge on Tuesday 31st October 18:40

[cymatty]

https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2023-10-31/rival...

As if this guy doesn't have enough to deal with he feels the need to have to post this to stop the armchair experts from spouting nonese.

Also the guys in the us posting sure it's nothing to do with skin colour.....

Edit and a second Nottingham player speaks out

player on ice said:

A sad aftermath in recent days has been the hate storm Sheffield player Matt Petgrave has had to endure on social media. Some people claim that it was a deliberate kick to Adam Johnson's neck, which Victor Björkung considers to be a biased opinion.

- What Matt has experienced is unimaginable. I don't understand how some people can behave, it's inhuman. I have texted him and expressed how I feel about everything and I support him. No one in our team thinks it's his fault, quite the opposite. We stand behind him. We are a big family and he can contact us if he needs it - that has been our message to him. He has shut down his social channels, but he thanked me for my support and texts. That was nice.

What do you want to say to those who claim it was a deliberate act by Matt Petgrave?

- They can go to hell, quite frankly. It's so insane that people think it's deliberate. Check the video, then you will see that it is an accident. Two skates collide right before, it goes so damn fast. There is no chance that it is deliberate. What I can say to those who believe otherwise is to listen to the people who were there and those who saw it in real time. I was a couple of meters away, so if anyone experienced it as it really was, then it was me.

https://www-expressen-se.translate.goog/sport/hockey/svenske-victor-bjorkung-var-pa-isen-vid-adam-johnsons-dodsolycka/?_x_tr_sl=sv&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp&s=08

Edited by cymatty on Tuesday 31st October 19:39

Edited by cymatty on Tuesday 31st October 20:08

[Sheetmaself]

BigRuts said:

Killer2005 said:

A question for the hockey players from someone who's never played, would something like this work or would it be too restrictive?

https://www.ppss-group.com/news/slash-resistant-ne...

Thats more or less what they are expecting.

One as part of the base layer


Or as a standalone piece of equipment

For me, and again never having worn one, it looks terribly restrictive. The all in one may be the better solution but the amount you have to turn your head to keep awareness ,imagine being hit by a dude carrying around 100kg as 20mph, you definitely want to know it’s coming, would lead to a lot of soreness.

Whats your view on these Pete?

[Pete102]

Sheetmaself said:

For me, and again never having worn one, it looks terribly restrictive. The all in one may be the better solution but the amount you have to turn your head to keep awareness ,imagine being hit by a dude carrying around 100kg as 20mph, you definitely want to know it’s coming, would lead to a lot of soreness.

Whats your view on these Pete?

Pretty much as you describe, they are quite irritating, collect essentially all of the sweat from your head as it runs down your neck and since it doesn't move with your neck 1:1 there is a degree of "slop" between your skin and the guard. Mentioned previously as well, these only provide cut resistance and not crush or impact resistance.

There have been many many more cases of concussion from high energy impacts in hockey, I also believe there are emerging cases of CTE which are being monitored, however, unlike Rugby and the like Ice Hockey in the UK does not employ an active concussion monitoring system with sensors in the shirts etc.

[The Gauge]

South Yorkshire arrest a man for manslaughter.
They probably read my post saying the tackle was a deliberate foul. Wonder if they have professionally analysed the video footage and decided it looked intentional? I guess deliberately raising you foot that had a blade fitted is considered likely to cause serious harm?

Edited by The Gauge on Tuesday 14th November 16:31